On Federal Taxation in the United States

Jul 27, 2014 22:52:52 GMT pjohns1873 said:

I agree that there is a widespread war-weariness in the US today. I further agree that war should be a last resort--not a first option. (Real war, after all, is not the mere game that it was for us, as children, when the "dead" simply got up--unharmed--and went to dinner.)

It seems a bit tendentious to quote, as an authoritative source, a publication dedicateed to the dissemination of "information, analysis and commentary on arms control proposals." (Bold added)  I would prefer to go with the news reports I heard, regularly, at the time. 

I remain unconvinced that Saddam no longer had WMD in late 2002 or early 2003.  He may indeed have possessed WMD at that time, and simply spirited it across the border, to Syria, just ahead of America's March 2003 incursion into Iraq.  But we well never really know, for sure.     

I was paying attention to the news media at the time and it was stating that the inspectors were not having any problems with free access to any sites. Even when it took perhaps an hour to gain access the Inspectors were waiting right outside of the gates and nothing left the facility to be inspected. They also had instruments that could measure "parts per trillion" that would have revealed even trace elements of any recent chemical or biological weapons being at a location.

Moving WMD's to Syria or any other place outside of Iraq would have been, at the minimum, an extensive operation requiring hundreds of people to be involved and perhaps thousands and yet not one person has ever come forward revealing that such an operation took place after over 10 years. Do you seriously think that such an undertaking could have remained an absolute secret being held by the literally hundreds or thousands of people that would have had to have been involved? It's not like they would face prison time for revealing it and a person that was involved could make millions of dollars from a book deal alone that released the details. We even had satellite observations of Iraq and there were no convoys of trucks leaving Iraq and not even our intelligence community has stated that this potentially happened. I've worked on secret US programs and we had to "dodge" Russian satellites (they fly-over at specific times) with a single truck moving covered "secret" materials from facilities. Iraq would not have known when our spy satellites were overhead and couldn't have dodged them.   

The potential movement of WMD's out of Iraq is a conspiracy theory that lacks even one "participant" out of the hundreds or thousands that would have had to have been involved coming forward to even claim that it ever happened and not even the Bush administration believed in this conspiracy theory.

Jul 28, 2014 23:24:10 GMT pjohns1873 said:

To what news network were you tuned between late 2002 and early 2003, that claimed that weapons inspectors "were not having any problems with free access to any sites"? MSNBC, perhaps? Certainly not FNC.

I do not think it is appropriate to breezily dismiss a theory as a mere "conspiracy" theory, when it would really amount to no "conspiracy" had the late Saddam Hussein ordered the transfer of his WMD out of the country, in anticipation of America's upcoming incursion into Iraq. 

(You are certainly correct that anyone revealing such a matter would not have "face[d] prison time"--but almost certain execution instead.)

By the way, as FrontPageMagazine.com noted on May 29, 2006:  "Just recently, Saddam Hussein's former southern regional commander, Gen. Al-Tikriti, gave the first videotaped testimony confirming that Iraq had WMDs up to the American invasion in 2003 and that Russia helped remove them prior to the war. His testimony confirms numerous other sources that have pointed to Russia's secret alliance with Iraq and the coordinated moving of WMDs before the American liberation."
 

In truth I actually read the UN reports as opposed to the stories being published by biased news organizations. It's sort or like looking at Iran's possible nuclear weapons ambitions. Reading the IAEA reports where they're tracking every gram of nuclear material in Iran reveals that none of the actual nuclear fuel as been enriched to weapons grade because the IAEA knows about every ounce of "yellow-cake" uranium Iran has ever obtained (it was all purchased by the Shah of Iran with US and international consent).

It has been a decade since Saddam was in power and not a single person that would have been involved in the actual movement of WMD's out of Iraq has come forward. They face no threat whatsoever if they were to reveal details of their involvment of moving WMD's out of Iraq.

You didn't provide a link to Gen. Al-Tikriti's testimony and we don't know if his statements have been discredited. Just remember how many expatriated Iraqis lied to the US to get the US to invade Iraq (all of them). Personally, instead of believing one Iraqi general where there is no collaborating evidence, I'd believe the later (2011) released CIA information that the CIA simply blew it related to Iraq's WMD's. From the CIA post invasion report:

nation.time.com/2012/09/06/iraq-how-the-cia-says-it-blew-it-on-saddams-wmd/

Based upon the review by the CIA apparently the UN Weapons Inspectors after the Gulf War were so effective that the "undeclared" WMD's that Bush adminstration was concerned with no longer existed because Saddam panicked and and destroyed them (which is exactly what I've been saying) and they didn't exist in 2002 or 2003 which is why they couldn't be found. They couldn't be secretly moved out of the country and Iraq couldn't even document their destruction because they'd been destroyed and all records of them even existing were destroyed.

Jul 30, 2014 0:04:06 GMT pjohns1873 said:

You appear to be entirely sanguine with "UN reports," as though that were a thoroughly unbiased agency.

I am sorry that I did not provide a link to the story about Iraqi Gen. Al-Tikriti. However (although I could not again find that particular article), here is a link to a rather similar article in World Net Daily:   www.wnd.com/2006/02/34818/

OMG, you've cited one of the Iraqi expatriots that left Iraq before 1991 that were later proven to be liars that wanted Saddam ousted from power. He had absolutely no knowledge related to WMD's after the Gulf War because he wasn't living in Iraq and his statements about Iraqi cooperation and/or financing of al Qaeda was proven to be false.

Please try to not cite any of the pre-Gulf War expatriated Iraqis that were proven to be liars that had absolutely no knowledge of anything going on in Iraq after the Gulf War. That was the primary problem with the Bush Administration. Everything the used as far as intelligence was from Iraq in the 1980's while they ignored what we now know was very accurate intelligence coming from the UN Weapons Inspectors.

Regardless of whether you thinkg the UN Reports were "biased" or not what we know is that they were 100% accurate. Iraq did not have any WMD production facilities or WMD's in 2003 because NONE were ever found and there is zero evidence that any were shipped anywhere outside of the country between 1991 and 2003.     

Jul 30, 2014 17:59:56 GMT pjohns1873 said:

What proof do you have that Gen. Al-Tikriti was a "liar" in this regard?

And the absence of evidence does not necessarily equate to the evidence of absence, as the old saying goes.

Let me clarify that. Gen. Al-Tikriti might have been able to provide information about Iraq's WMD's in the 1980's before he defected from his position in the Iraqi military and became an expatriot seeking to remove Saddam from power. He had absolutely no knowledge of Post-Gulf War Iraq, period, because he was never in Iraq during the 1990's. Did Iraq export any WMD's to Syria in the 1980's? Perhaps but there in no evidence whatsoever that Iraq did that after the Gulf War. Iraq sending WMD's to Syria in 2002-2003 is a pure conspiracy theory without a single shred of evidence to support it. Gen. Al-Tikriti's statements about what might of been happening in the 1980's is certainly not evidence of what Iraq might have been doing between 1991-2003. Even Gen. Al-Tikriti didn't state that Iraq did send WMD's to Syria but instead that it "might" have done that. He had no actual knowledge of WMD's being shipped to Syria at all.  

As for his claims that Iraq had an al Qaeda connection the Pentagon later discredited this claim.

www.cnn.com/2008/US/03/13/alqaeda.saddam/
 

No WMD's (that the UN Weapons Inspectors accurately reported), no al Qaeda connection, and no threat to any nation = No justification for the invasion based upon the provisions of the Iraq War Resolution.

Aug 1, 2014 0:31:09 GMT pjohns1873 said:

I never asserted that there was a connection between al-Qaeda and Saddam Hussein's Iraq. (Your argument, in this regard, would appear to be with the Bush administration; and I do not consider it my job to be a defender of any administration.)

And I agree with Gen. Al-Tikriti that Saddam "might" have removed WMD, and sent it to Syria. I cannot prove, unequivocally, that this occurred. But the possibility certainly remains, it seems to me.

Gen. Al-Tikriti stated that Saddam "might" have removed WMD and sent them to Syria in the 1980's and not in 2002-2003.

Aug 2, 2014 0:41:17 GMT pjohns1873 said:

Aug 1, 2014 10:35:32 GMT ShivaTD said:

Gen. Al-Tikriti stated that Saddam "might" have removed WMD and sent them to Syria in the 1980's and not in 2002-2003.

I fear that we are destined to dance around and around about this. So consider another source, please.

Iraqi Air Force General Sadas Georges indicated in his book (Saddam's Secrets: How an Iraqi General Defied and Survived Saddam Hussein) that, just prior to America's incursion into Iraq in 2003, Russia helped Iraq load WMD onto planes and fly it to Syria. 

And somehow, amazingly, not a single person that was actually involved in loading the planes has ever come forward nor has US intelligence ever identified a single Russian, Iraqi, or any other plane that could have been involved in this air transport of WMD's from Iraq to Syria. It wasn't that we weren't "looking" and simply missed it because we had constant satellite and drone survellance over Iraq at the time. 

We should also note that General Sada Georges retired from the Iraqi Air Force in 1991 and had no direct knowledge of any of this happening and certainly wasn't involved in it even if it did occur (for which there is absolutely no evidence). His book, based upon the title, was really about his military career that ended in 1991 and we can assume everything else was pure speculation on his part as he had no personal information after his retirement.  Hearsay is not evidence.

Aug 2, 2014 23:15:25 GMT pjohns1873 said:

No matter what source I put forth, you quickly dismiss it as mere "speculation" and "[h]earsay."  So I really do not know what more I might add, that you would find useful. 

So far you've only posted sources that could have had knowledge from prior to the Gulf War in 1991. Do you have any sources from a person that was actually involved in or had direct knowledge of the movement of the WMD's from 2002 or 2003?

That was the problem with much of the Bush "intelligence" because it was related to the Gulf War or 1980's when we knew that Iraq had WMD's. The only current intelligence with any accuracy and relevance was coming from the UN Weapons Inspectors in 2002 and 2003 and it turned out to be 100% accurate.