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Post by ShivaTD on Sept 28, 2013 6:40:13 GMT
It is always interesting when a nation creates laws of prohibition and then when "outlaw gangs" exploit that prohibition with black market capitalism it's the capitalist that's condemned. Decriminalize drugs and it would eliminate the gang activities that deal in illegal drugs.
It's also interesting that in Australia that the "outlaw" motorcycle clubs would prohibit motorcycles other than Harley-Davidson that even the Hells Angels don't prohibit members from owning. Historically, for example, a past president of the Hells Angels owned a BSA motorcycle. I believe that many Hells Angels today own Indians and Victory motorcycles but I'd have to double-check that to verify it.
As noted though these are a very small percentage of Harley Owners and even a smaller percentage of all motorcycle owners.
It's also hard to understand how any nation could prohibit two people from talking to each other which was mentioned in one of the stories from Australia. No Freedom of Speech and Association in Australia?
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Post by Leo on Sept 28, 2013 13:47:50 GMT
It's also hard to understand how any nation could prohibit two people from talking to each other which was mentioned in one of the stories from Australia. No Freedom of Speech and Association in Australia?
I think that was a bit of surmise by the news medium concerned. I don't see what mechanism can be employed to prevent one gang member from associating with another. But I am not totally familair with the laws of Queensland, which tends to be mega-conservative - a bit like Texas or Florida.
But do you see why Harley-Davidsons are not looked upon favourably by your average Aussie?
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Post by ShivaTD on Sept 28, 2013 18:41:25 GMT
It's also hard to understand how any nation could prohibit two people from talking to each other which was mentioned in one of the stories from Australia. No Freedom of Speech and Association in Australia?
I think that was a bit of surmise by the news medium concerned. I don't see what mechanism can be employed to prevent one gang member from associating with another. But I am not totally familair with the laws of Queensland, which tends to be mega-conservative - a bit like Texas or Florida.
But do you see why Harley-Davidsons are not looked upon favourably by your average Aussie? "Mega-conservatives" as in those that stereotype and ignore the Rights of the Person? Okay, I can see the comparison in places like Texas and Florida.
I would say that the reason Harley-Davidsons are not looked upon favorably is because of bad press that stereotypes the Harley-Davidson owners. Sort of like Rottweiler's that are a wonderfully gentle dog breed but are condemned because of a few irresponsible owners that abuse them and make them mean and vicious.
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Post by Leo on Sept 29, 2013 11:59:29 GMT
I think that was a bit of surmise by the news medium concerned. I don't see what mechanism can be employed to prevent one gang member from associating with another. But I am not totally familair with the laws of Queensland, which tends to be mega-conservative - a bit like Texas or Florida.
But do you see why Harley-Davidsons are not looked upon favourably by your average Aussie? "Mega-conservatives" as in those that stereotype and ignore the Rights of the Person? Okay, I can see the comparison in places like Texas and Florida.
I would say that the reason Harley-Davidsons are not looked upon favorably is because of bad press that stereotypes the Harley-Davidson owners. Sort of like Rottweiler's that are a wonderfully gentle dog breed but are condemned because of a few irresponsible owners that abuse them and make them mean and vicious.
I am not sure whether you are accusing me of being someone who 'stereotypes and ignores the rights of the person". If so - fine, whatever! I have too much respect for your views on other things to get involved in trading insults over your choice of motorcycle.
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Post by ShivaTD on Sept 29, 2013 12:32:36 GMT
No such intention on my part as I was merely referring to the stereotyping in the news media when it comes to different issues such as stereotyping Harley-Davidson motorcycles or owners because of a few outlaw bikers that happen to ride them. Any informed person looks beyond the stereotypes.
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Post by Leo on Sept 29, 2013 15:21:31 GMT
No such intention on my part as I was merely referring to the stereotyping in the news media when it comes to different issues such as stereotyping Harley-Davidson motorcycles or owners because of a few outlaw bikers that happen to ride them. Any informed person looks beyond the stereotypes. Cool! (in ten words or more, and more, and more)
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Post by maniacalhamster on Sept 30, 2013 6:15:18 GMT
It's also hard to understand how any nation could prohibit two people from talking to each other which was mentioned in one of the stories from Australia. No Freedom of Speech and Association in Australia?
I think that was a bit of surmise by the news medium concerned. I don't see what mechanism can be employed to prevent one gang member from associating with another. But I am not totally familair with the laws of Queensland, which tends to be mega-conservative - a bit like Texas or Florida.
But do you see why Harley-Davidsons are not looked upon favourably by your average Aussie? I've been waiting till i met up with an Aussie friend of mine. He says bluntly your talking out yer arse..... all this stereotyping and such your saying aussies say like it's true is just not so. He said he has seen Harley's ridden in australia and not by criminals ...ever!!!....just plain people riding a bike,,,and like never got into such a conversation as you . True harley's a few and far between over there but not some badge of criminals ... he still owns a duccatti back in australia.
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Post by ShivaTD on Sept 30, 2013 10:05:50 GMT
I grew up around outlaw bikers including the Galloping Gooses, Satin Slaves, and Hells Angels and I have a slightly different perspective of them than most. They are unquestionably anti-establishment but it is not as if they lack a code of conduct. They have their own "laws" that they live by. I will use the Hells Angels as an example because they're the most well known.
They're capitalists and, because the drug prohibition laws passed by "the establishment" provide an enterprise where a lot of money is to be made, they engage in that business. Like any capitalistic enterprise they engage in "mergers and acquisitions" by absorbing their competition in the drug trade and expand their market share. They prefer to do so "peacefully" and will approach another club and offer them the opportunity to merge with the Hells Angels. If the club refuses then the Hells Angeles use force (violence) it trying to capture the market share in the drug business exactly like the Mafia did during alcohol prohibition. It's a "join us or else" proposition.
Of course they respond to violence with violence so its also a case of the "Hatfields and McCoys" and it doesn't matter who initiated the first act of aggression.
Like the Mafia their violence is not directed at the general public (unless a person directly challenges them, insults them, or in some other manner offends them) but instead is directed at the competitors in the drug trade.
Also like the Mafia they are absolutely honest in their business dealings. They will not cheat or rip-off someone in a drug deal for example. That would violate their code of conduct (and would be bad for business).
Here in the NW the Bandidos are the primary motorcycle outlaw club and I encounter them occasionally but there have never been any problems. I treat the members I meet with respect and they return that respect. Being somewhat anti-establishment myself, and opposing government drug prohibition laws, I don't have any problem with their engaging in that business. Their relationships with other outlaw motorcycle clubs is none of my business. They don't harm me so I have no problem with them. On the flip side the Banditos were subjected to really immoral law enforcement including entrapment and I do oppose law enforcement engaging in many of the practices that the use.
The "establishment" freaks out over these outlaw motorcycle clubs but I don't. For me it's always been a case of live and let live. They're not going to break into my house. They're not going to assault me. They're not going to steal from me. If they do then I'll have a personal reason to oppose them but the fact they're involved in the black market is not a problem for me.
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Post by Leo on Sept 30, 2013 15:48:58 GMT
Gentlemen, thank you for your information. but I think I am going to retire from this particular discussion. It may even be beneficial to all concerned if I gave this place a rest for a little while. I apologise to anyone I have inadvertently offended, butI have not encountered this much overt and barely repressed hostility on any board so far, and it is obvious that I am doing something wrong here. So perhaps it is time to stop and take stock.
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Post by maniacalhamster on Sept 30, 2013 16:55:28 GMT
Gentlemen, thank you for your information. but I think I am going to retire from this particular discussion. It may even be beneficial to all concerned if I gave this place a rest for a little while. I apologise to anyone I have inadvertently offended, butI have not encountered this much overt and barely repressed hostility on any board so far, and it is obvious that I am doing something wrong here. So perhaps it is time to stop and take stock. busting online crime...the Hamster chalks another one up.... you showed your hand , it was an obvious fraud and just plain simple trolling the subject line ...i bet you even felt the troll and now your actions prove it...welly well well, are we not the showed up youth...lol but hey you do have better grammar and your writing skills are way better than mine...which are'nt any now your going to threaten the membership game... boo hoo....
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Post by ShivaTD on Oct 1, 2013 9:07:50 GMT
Leo is a gentleman and always tries to conduct himself as one. He presents opinions like all of us and while the opinion can be argued it's wrong for members to take it to a personal level.
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Post by ShivaTD on Oct 2, 2013 17:30:31 GMT
For those that have missed the US news recently there was an attack on an SUV driver by outraged "bikers" after accident where the SUV driver hit one of the motorcyclists. While the initial accident was the SUV drivers fault the reaction to it was the "bikers" fault and one that I know of that's been arrested for assault and battery. There is video of it and the story on this link.
www.coolbuster.net/2013/10/bikers-attack-suv-driver.html
Please note that these were NOT Harley riders.
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Post by ShivaTD on Oct 5, 2013 11:51:25 GMT
Australia may indeed have a problem with some Harley riders but the problem in the United States is related more to the "Metric" riders that ignore the laws and creating a public danger. More information is coming out on the incident in New York that left the driver of a car seriously injured and one motorcyclist possibly paralyzed. Here are a couple of quotations from an article today on that incident.
online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304176904579113700752402182.html?ru=yahoo?mod=yahoo_itp
This is just one incident but let me explain some differences between a "Harley" ride and a "Metric" ride.
On a Harley ride the riders ride in a staggered double-file with a 2-second interval between the riders and occupy a single lane of traffic following all traffic laws.
On a Metric ride they swarm the road completely weaving in and out of traffic, ignoring speed limits and safety, cutting off traffic, running red lights and stop signs (and not "safely" as described), and often do motorcycle stunts like wheelies along the way. They are total anarchists on the road without regard for anyone's safety, not even their own, or any of the traffic laws. They'd do anything if they thought they could get away with it.
Of course this is a generalization but it reflects a fundamentally different approach to riding. The Metric riders are all about having a motorcycle that will do 140 mph and will pop wheelies while doing 70 mph on the freeway and I've seen them do this more than I'd like to admit. I never seen a single Harley rider on the freeway doing 100 mph but I see well over a dozen of Metric riders doing this every year. True, a dozen riders isn't all that many, but that's just the number I've personally seen weaving in and out of traffic in their pursuit of speed. I don't even see Harley riders doing even 10 mph over the speed limit on the freeway. They'll fudge a little on the speed limit but they're not nut-so speed freaks like the Metric riders.
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Post by Leo on Oct 5, 2013 22:28:09 GMT
Australia may indeed have a problem with some Harley riders but the problem in the United States is related more to the "Metric" riders that ignore the laws and creating a public danger. More information is coming out on the incident in New York that left the driver of a car seriously injured and one motorcyclist possibly paralyzed. Here are a couple of quotations from an article today on that incident. online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304176904579113700752402182.html?ru=yahoo?mod=yahoo_itp
This is just one incident but let me explain some differences between a "Harley" ride and a "Metric" ride.
On a Harley ride the riders ride in a staggered double-file with a 2-second interval between the riders and occupy a single lane of traffic following all traffic laws.
On a Metric ride they swarm the road completely weaving in and out of traffic, ignoring speed limits and safety, cutting off traffic, running red lights and stop signs (and not "safely" as described), and often do motorcycle stunts like wheelies along the way. They are total anarchists on the road without regard for anyone's safety, not even their own, or any of the traffic laws. They'd do anything if they thought they could get away with it.
Of course this is a generalization but it reflects a fundamentally different approach to riding. The Metric riders are all about having a motorcycle that will do 140 mph and will pop wheelies while doing 70 mph on the freeway and I've seen them do this more than I'd like to admit. I never seen a single Harley rider on the freeway doing 100 mph but I see well over a dozen of Metric riders doing this every year. True, a dozen riders isn't all that many, but that's just the number I've personally seen weaving in and out of traffic in their pursuit of speed. I don't even see Harley riders doing even 10 mph over the speed limit on the freeway. They'll fudge a little on the speed limit but they're not nut-so speed freaks like the Metric riders.
What are Metric riders? I have never heard the term before.
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Post by ShivaTD on Oct 6, 2013 2:41:47 GMT
In the US we refer to foreign motorcycles as "Metrics" because they use metric bolts as opposed to SAE bolts that are measured in fractions of inches. 8mm v 1/4" for example.
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