|
|
Post by JP5 on Oct 23, 2013 15:29:41 GMT
Liberals always think they know best what is best for everyone else. And they couldn't be more wrong. They like to change subjects by going on and on about the KKK and racism. However, it was the Democrat party who had in their midst sitting as a revered and esteemed member of Senate representing them.....a former KKK leader named Robert Byrd. He even said the "n" word on national tv in his latter years and it was crickets from the liberals....when they would have excoriated anyone who wasn't of their own party.
Liberals like to ignore the fact that many free blacks came over her during those times as well. Some of their ancestors today have traced themselves all the way back to these free blacks. They also ignore that MANY whites came over here as indentured servants to work the British plantations when we were still a Colony of Britain. George Washington "owned" white indentured servants and even placed an ad once for the capture and return of one white indentured servant of his who had left. The difference, of course, was that at the end of their indenture, they were free to leave; black slaves rounded up in Africa and brought here by the British to work their plantations, were not. Liberals also like to ignore the fact that it was other blacks in Africa who rounded up their own people and "sold" them in to slavery. So, lots of groups had a hand in this terrible thing called slavery. It is also quite a stretch to claim that it was liberals who founded our country, but had nothing to do with slavery. And it was Dixiecrats (Democrats like Robert Byrd) who formed the KKK and were members. NOT to say that there were no conservatives involved, of course.
Getting back to white indentured servants/slaves......I have traced several of my family lineages to ancestors who came here to our wonderful country in that very manner. In fact, I recently learned that a large percentage of whites who came here during those very early years, came as indentured servants/slaves. That included Benjamin Franklin......although he was indentured to a merchant who taught him a skill; printing. There were other Founding Fathers who came as indentured servants.
But let's take a look at which political party STILL holds racist views. IMHO, it's the Democrat party who says to blacks, "you are not smart enough or capable enough to make it on your own; you must depend on us to take care of you....and all we require in return is for you to vote for us and keep us in power." It's the same kind of "parental" attitude that slave owners had. Democrats also get upset whenever a black person today "steps off the plantation" and becomes a conservative/Republican. If you doubt this.....look at how they demonize anyone who has done so: Condoleeza Rice, J.C. Watts, and even Colin Powell before he came back to being an Obama supporter. I believe that more and more blacks eventually will cross over....after all the race baiters die off. Because they know that the Democrat party has really not done anything for them, but keep them down.
|
|
|
|
Post by JP5 on Oct 23, 2013 15:38:58 GMT
Oh, stop with the violin and sad stories. I grew up in a family without health insurance. My Dad was a carpenter who worked alongside Mexicans for wages for much of his life. Eventually he and his brother formed their own business, but the largest part of his life he was working for others and for wages. There were 3 kids, 2 parents and we were 1 block from the railroad tracks in a frame un-airconditioned, un-heated house.
I realize things are a lot more expensive now....but it's all relative. So are wages a lot more now than they were then.
Point is.....my husband and I were both the FIRST in our families to even go to college; much less graduate as we both did. We also made the right decisions to get ahead. I think many of the people today who are down and out do NOT make the right decisions. IF they drink, do drugs, have babies with several different women and take no responsibility for themselves.....then they are NOT making the right decisions. And they ultimately are harming the children they produce and society as a whole. It's like Pres. Bush always said by using this phrase....
"the soft bigotry of low expectations." IF you expect nothing from a group, that's exactly what you get. Democrats are very much at fault here.
|
|
|
|
Post by ShivaTD on Oct 23, 2013 16:45:34 GMT
Let me begin by commending the above poster for his issuing a thoughtful response. This is certainly a step in the right direction. But, whereas I agree with his assertion that the government should get out of the marriage business altogether, I disagree as concerning other points. For instance: The easy correlation between the anti-Catholic and anti-nonwhite biases of 100 years ago and the opposition to the (illegal) invasion of the Southwest nowadays is simply preposterous. Some of us revere this nation's sovereignty; and to endorse (tacitly, at least) the utter destruction of that sovereignty--which is precisely what unregulated, unfettered "immigration" does--is repellent to us. And the notion that the several states have a "responsibility" to enact their own analogues to RomneyCare is equally ludicrous, it seems to me. (Note: This is not to suggest that healthcare insurance in America was just hunky-dorey, in every conceivable way, prior to ObamaCare--and I have suggested, in some other political forums, some fundamental changes I would propose; some of which are actually a part of ObamaCare--but I do not believe in such an expansive interpretation of "the general welfare" as to suppose that either the individual states or the federal government should be made responsible for healthcare insurance.)
An Inalienable Right is that which is inherent in the person, not dependent upon any other person, and which does not infringe upon or create an obligation on any other person.
Ayn Rand summarized, and accurately so, that the fundamental Inalienable Right was the "Right of Self" and from that all other Inalienable Rights are derived.
The Tea Party expresses many principles I agree with but their actions often reflect a misunderstand of the principles. I will mention some things that may or may not be specific to "Tea Party" ideology but examples where I can demonstrate difference.m
"Natural Born Citizenship" reflects the Inalienable Right of Citizenship of the Person. As an Inalienable Right it cannot be dependent upon another person such as their parents. It is established by Jus Soli (Latin for the Right of Soil) and a person is a literally "natural born citizen of the soil upon which they were born." A child born in Seattle is a natural born citizen of Seattle, and because Seattle is in the State of Washington they are a natural born citizen of Washington, and because Washington is on of the 50 United States they are therefore a natural born citizen of the United States. This is basically exactly what the 14th Amendment to the US Constitution establishes. Jus Soli has always been the criteria for Natural Born Citizenship in America because it was understood even before the founding of the United States. A person born in 17th Century England was a natural born subject (the don't have 'citizens' under a monarchy) of the King regardless of who their parents might be. The only exception was the children of diplomats excluded from the jurisdiction of the King by treaty or enemy armies of occupation.
Many people believe that native born citizenship, which is citizenship "established at birth" under statutory law is the same as natural born citizenship but one is an Inalienable Right of the Person while the other is Granted by Government fiat often because their parents are citizens of the nation. Remember though that an Inalienable Right of the Person cannot be dependent upon anyone else and that is a key difference between "natural born" and "native born" citizens.
Another difference I have with many "conservatives" relates to the "preborn" that historically have never been "persons" as personhood was always established at birth and not before. A "non-person" does not have Inalienable Rights so the "preborn" have no inalienable Rights. We're not arguing whether they should or not but as currently established in the US Constitution they don't. Technically the "preborn" cannot be murdered for example because murder represents the wrongful violation of the Inalienable Rights of the Person. But I'm also empathetic related to the "preborn" and understand that the definition of "person" can be changed by establishing legal precedent. The supreme law of the land is the US Constitution (all State Constitutions state this fact) and so the only why to changed the definition of "person" to include the "preborn" is by Constitutional Amendment. Attempts to circumvent the US Constitution are nefarious as they infringe upon the Rights of the Woman that is a person. Of course a Constitutional Amendment requires ratification by 3/4ths of the States and "pragmatically" I don't see it being much different that the progressive interpretation in Roe v Wade where the Supreme Court granted protections to a fetus and natural viability based upon "potential" personhood.
I'm not exactly sure why the comparison to immigration restrictions for the Chinese, Catholics, and Jews historically can't be seen in today's immigration restrictions target Hispanics. In all cases the argument was that they were bringing foreign values to America that didn't fit with the WASP (not intended to have the typical negative connotation because even I'm a WASP) traditions established in America. The "Catholics" were far more "socialistic" in their beliefs than the traditional WASPs controlling in America. I remember when Kennedy was running for President that one of the greatest issues was whether the was going to be a subject of the Pope or of the US Constitution. Millions of "Protestants" questioned his very loyalty to the United States because he was a Catholic. Of course Chinese and the Jews were completely "foreign" in their both religion and political beliefs when compared to the WASP's controlling America.
Today we restrict Hispanic immigration for exactly the same reason and the statement I've quoted reflects that. People are afraid of foreigners that are not typical White Anglo-Saxon Protestants from coming to America because they don't have the same political ideologies and religious beliefs of the ruling WASP's in control of the country but prior immigration of non-WASPs hasn't resulted in the destruction of the country or any loss of sovereignty and, in fact, has made America stronger.
The only negative immigration to America was the forced immigration of Africans brought here as slaves that have subjected to severe discrimination ever since long after slavery ended. Given equality then even this immigration would benefit America but as long as the racial discrimination and denial of equality continues we create our own problems. How much better of would America be if 14% to 18% of African-Americans looking for work could actually get a job? How much better off would America be if African-Americans were paid the same wages for work as whites that would reduce poverty, provide income for stable marriages, and dramatically reduce crime in the African-American communities?
We often hear the call for African-Americans to lift themselves up from their bootstraps but that is almost impossible to do when someone is standing on your neck. Racial discrimination that denies equality of economic opportunity is a boot on the neck that too many ignore. Few can overcome it and the cases are so rare that we have to resort to anecdotal cases just to show it can happen at all.
Once again, as I noted at the beginning, many of the expressed principles of the Tea Party I can agree with but how we seek to achieve those principles in practice is where we differ. We can both say that we oppose government welfare but the difference is that the "Tea Party" wants to simply leave the problem of "poverty" untouched taking no responsibility for the fact that the primary causes of poverty isn't because the person wants to be in poverty. These are hard working Americans, many of them work harder than many of us, but they are subjected to many conditions such as the highest tax burden relative to income in the United States and/or invidious discrimination that drives them into poverty through high unemployment and lower wages even when they can get a job.
My solution is pragmatic (and I don't mind being called pragmatic because that represents being a realist) because my proposition, and it's sound, is that if we address "poverty" and reduce it we in turn reduce spending on welfare that only mitigates the effects of poverty but does nothing to reduce poverty.
So the choice is between simply cutting spending leaving the people in poverty where they don't have enough to adequately live on or reducing poverty where they don't need the assistance at all and that reduces spending.
The same is true with Obamacare that, to a large degree, is a result of relative poverty. Millions of people can't get the necessary medical services they need because they can't afford insurance and thousands of those people die each year. That is a huge problem so let's address it. "Obamacare" sucks and I've said that repeatedly but if we don't fix the problem then Obamacare is better than nothing.
Simply ignoring the problem with the default plan of "Don't get sick and if you do get sick then die quickly" isn't an option IMHO. That is the problem I see with Ted Cruz and many in the Tea Party is that they propose the "default" option by ignoring the problem and calling for the end of "Obamacare" with nothing to replace it.
|
|
|
|
Post by ShivaTD on Oct 23, 2013 17:25:16 GMT
Oh, stop with the violin and sad stories. I grew up in a family without health insurance. My Dad was a carpenter who worked alongside Mexicans for wages for much of his life. Eventually he and his brother formed their own business, but the largest part of his life he was working for others and for wages. There were 3 kids, 2 parents and we were 1 block from the railroad tracks in a frame un-airconditioned, un-heated house.
I realize things are a lot more expensive now....but it's all relative. So are wages a lot more now than they were then.
Point is.....my husband and I were both the FIRST in our families to even go to college; much less graduate as we both did. We also made the right decisions to get ahead. I think many of the people today who are down and out do NOT make the right decisions. IF they drink, do drugs, have babies with several different women and take no responsibility for themselves.....then they are NOT making the right decisions. And they ultimately are harming the children they produce and society as a whole. It's like Pres. Bush always said by using this phrase....
"the soft bigotry of low expectations." IF you expect nothing from a group, that's exactly what you get. Democrats are very much at fault here.
Is this racially stereotyping that reflects racial prejudice? Just curious because drinking, illegal drug use, and men sleeping with numerous women and unwed women getting pregnant is about equal for blacks and whites and it hasn't keep the "whites" down and in poverty. Anecdotally I go out to breakfast every Saturday and three of the "white" waitresses, all unmarried, have become pregnant and/or had children in the last year alone. I believe that all of them do illegal drugs and I know that all of them drink. Of course they have middle income families that will probably help support them while a black woman is unlikely to have that.
What about the high official unemployment rate for African-Americans that typically runs two to three times higher than for whites? These are people that have been working, lost their jobs, and are actively seeking work but aren't being hired. Studies have shown that a white person is between 2.3 and 3.4 times more likely to be hired than a black person when all other factors except race are identical.
I commend your father for working hard and supporting your family but we must also realize that if he applied for a job and a black person with the same skills and knowledge applied for that job your father virtually always got the job. That has always been the case in America and it's no different today.
Of course I also grew up in a relatively low income white family. My mother used to mix bread crumbs with hamburger just to have enough to one hamburger for the four of us in the family. My dad often worked two jobs (one full time and one part time) and my mother always worked just to make ends meet.
But like your parents if there was a job they'd get it while a black person would be turned away. Even Mexicans received preferential treatment in employment when compared to blacks because they were closer to being "white" than an African-American.
Anyone that doesn't believe that racial discrimination isn't behind the poverty in the black communities is living in a bubble. Lack of economic equality destroys the family structure as poverty has been cited as the primary cause of the breakdown in the African-American families today. A man needs to earn a living to support a family and when that is denied because of racial discrimination the family falls apart. Poverty (i.e. a lack of money) is primary cause of divorce. Of course if a person can't get a job, even when they're actively looking all of the time, so they support a family it would be irresponsible for them to marry, wouldn't it?
I tire of the excuses by Conservatives for why African-Americans are in poverty, why their crime rates are high, and why they don't do well economically. How many white realize that African-Americans today are reaching parity with whites when it comes to education but they still can't get a job? African-Americans don't choose to live in poverty. That is a myth. Virtually every African-American would prefer to be working and earning at least a middle income living. It isn't that the don't want to work or that they're not some of the hardest working Americans when they have a job but the fact is that they don't get hired and if they do they don't get paid the same amount as a "white" person doing the identical work, and generally when layoffs occur they're the first ones shown the door.
Every one of these facts has been repeatedly documented by studies that "conservatives" simply refuse to believe.
|
|
|
|
Post by JP5 on Oct 25, 2013 2:08:34 GMT
Oh, stop with the violin and sad stories. I grew up in a family without health insurance. My Dad was a carpenter who worked alongside Mexicans for wages for much of his life. Eventually he and his brother formed their own business, but the largest part of his life he was working for others and for wages. There were 3 kids, 2 parents and we were 1 block from the railroad tracks in a frame un-airconditioned, un-heated house.
I realize things are a lot more expensive now....but it's all relative. So are wages a lot more now than they were then.
Point is.....my husband and I were both the FIRST in our families to even go to college; much less graduate as we both did. We also made the right decisions to get ahead. I think many of the people today who are down and out do NOT make the right decisions. IF they drink, do drugs, have babies with several different women and take no responsibility for themselves.....then they are NOT making the right decisions. And they ultimately are harming the children they produce and society as a whole. It's like Pres. Bush always said by using this phrase....
"the soft bigotry of low expectations." IF you expect nothing from a group, that's exactly what you get. Democrats are very much at fault here.
Is this racially stereotyping that reflects racial prejudice? Just curious because drinking, illegal drug use, and men sleeping with numerous women and unwed women getting pregnant is about equal for blacks and whites and it hasn't keep the "whites" down and in poverty. Anecdotally I go out to breakfast every Saturday and three of the "white" waitresses, all unmarried, have become pregnant and/or had children in the last year alone. I believe that all of them do illegal drugs and I know that all of them drink. Of course they have middle income families that will probably help support them while a black woman is unlikely to have that.
Are you serious here? WHERE, pray tell, did I mention race? YOU are the only one who mentioned race....so I guess that makes it YOU that hold some racial prejudice.....because that's what popped in to YOUR mind.
What about the high official unemployment rate for African-Americans that typically runs two to three times higher than for whites? These are people that have been working, lost their jobs, and are actively seeking work but aren't being hired. Studies have shown that a white person is between 2.3 and 3.4 times more likely to be hired than a black person when all other factors except race are identical.
I commend your father for working hard and supporting your family but we must also realize that if he applied for a job and a black person with the same skills and knowledge applied for that job your father virtually always got the job. That has always been the case in America and it's no different today.
Of course I also grew up in a relatively low income white family. My mother used to mix bread crumbs with hamburger just to have enough to one hamburger for the four of us in the family. My dad often worked two jobs (one full time and one part time) and my mother always worked just to make ends meet.
But like your parents if there was a job they'd get it while a black person would be turned away. Even Mexicans received preferential treatment in employment when compared to blacks because they were closer to being "white" than an African-American.
No. Actually it's because Mexicans....at least here in Texas....are known for their carpentry and landscaping skills...and their hard work. And their stone work; beautiful stone work! Landscaping work, however....mowing, etc. is very hard physical work. And Mexicans are very hard workers.
Anyone that doesn't believe that racial discrimination isn't behind the poverty in the black communities is living in a bubble. Lack of economic equality destroys the family structure as poverty has been cited as the primary cause of the breakdown in the African-American families today. A man needs to earn a living to support a family and when that is denied because of racial discrimination the family falls apart. Poverty (i.e. a lack of money) is primary cause of divorce. Of course if a person can't get a job, even when they're actively looking all of the time, so they support a family it would be irresponsible for them to marry, wouldn't it?
Of course....you must know that's all baloney. It's liberal policies of welfare which make it less likely they WILL look for a job and get out and work. The welfare state belongs to the Democrats.....always has; it's the policies the push. And blacks vote for them like 97%. How many other racial populations do you know that almost ALL vote one way with no varying political views? Asians, and Mexicans are far more varied in their political views.....and so are whites.
BUT, that's slowly changing. It won't be too much longer before all the race-baiting dies out. I have a black friend in my neighborhood whose husband is very high up in a private healthcare system. She's confided with me that she supports Republicans. She also told me that most all of her family chastises her for it.....as if she shouldn't break from the rest. But her words to me were......"I don't want them taking more and more of the money we worked for all these years!" She and I have had some pretty good conversations about all that....so I know it's going to change eventually. Most blacks have seen that the ones who have made it OUT Of poverty are the ones who did not buy into the victimhood of the past and realize that making the right choices is what enable them to "make it."
I tire of the excuses by Conservatives for why African-Americans are in poverty, why their crime rates are high, and why they don't do well economically. How many white realize that African-Americans today are reaching parity with whites when it comes to education but they still can't get a job? African-Americans don't choose to live in poverty. That is a myth. Virtually every African-American would prefer to be working and earning at least a middle income living. It isn't that the don't want to work or that they're not some of the hardest working Americans when they have a job but the fact is that they don't get hired and if they do they don't get paid the same amount as a "white" person doing the identical work, and generally when layoffs occur they're the first ones shown the door.
Every one of these facts has been repeatedly documented by studies that "conservatives" simply refuse to believe.
|
|
|
|
Post by ShivaTD on Oct 25, 2013 10:36:04 GMT
Why is it that so many WASP (not used in a derogatory sense but just to define White Anglo-Saxon Protestant heritage that I'm representative of) believe that because a person is black they're somehow more inclined to be lazy good for nothings drug addicts not trying very hard to get ahead in America?
They apparently believe that the reason that the official unemployment statistics for African-Americans that are always two to three times higher than for whites is because the African-Americans don't want to work, aren't looking for a job, or aren't as qualified as a white person and this is absolutely absurd. Studies have shown that they're not being hired because they're black and not because they're lazy, not looking, and not qualified. Studies have also shown that a black person can only expect about 60% of the compensation for the identical job that a white person is employed in. Both are equally qualified doing the identical work but the white man is paid more. Studies have also shown that during economic downturns the "black man" is more likely to be shown the door first regardless of equal performance.
We have study after study after study that documents the on-going discrimination against Blacks in America that deny them economic equality of opportunity and advancement and every single one of these studies is ignored by the "right-wing" of American politics.
Why do African-Americans score lower on IQ tests: Because they don't give a damn about these tests after learning that education really won't get them a job. There is almost parity between whites and blacks in education achievement today but a white person is virtually always believed to be "more qualified" when all factors but race is accounted for in employment so the "white" person gets the job.
Why do African-Americans commit more crimes: In many cases, such as drug law violations, they don't but they are four times more likely to be arrested, prosecuted, and sentenced to longer terms in prison than a white person. Racial prejudice has been documented in our criminal justice system. In other cases because they don't have a reasonable hope to be treated equally in the legal employment market, with good cause that is documented, the only source of income they have is in the illegal black-market that doesn't discriminate against them. Black gangs are all about dealing in the black-market and the violence in the black market is common regardless of race.
Why is there a breakdown in the African-American family: Because poverty breaks down the family structure. If the man cannot support the family he is far less likely to form a family knowing he can't support it.
When we trace the root cause of all of the negative stereotypes of black the fundamental problem always turns out to be racial discrimination and prejudice against African-Americans in the United States. It is the root cause of all of the problems we can cite related to the African-American community. It is not because they're lazy, uneducated, or unwilling to work hard to get ahead in America. They want to raise themselves up from their bootstraps but racial prejudice and discrimination is a boot stepping on their necks and holding them down.
Like many I don't like welfare assistance that mitigates the effects of poverty (but doesn't do anything to end poverty) and if we want to dramatically reduce it the first step is to end racial and gender prejudice that leads to discrimination in America that is a primary cause of poverty because it denies equality of economic opportunity. "Conservatives" need to stop blaming the "black man" for the fact that they can't get ahead as long as we discriminate against them. We're the problem, not the black person that we deny equality to.
|
|
WHERE, pray tell, did I mention race? YOU are the only one who mentioned race....so I guess that makes it YOU that hold some racial prejudice.....because that's what popped in to YOUR mind.