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Post by africanhope on Nov 5, 2013 14:47:21 GMT
Here you go you poms, the to celebrate the day you democracy survived!
Remember, remember!
The fifth of November,
The Gunpowder treason and plot;
I know of no reason
Why the Gunpowder treason
Should ever be forgot!
Guy Fawkes and his companions
Did the scheme contrive,
To blow the King and Parliament
All up alive.
Threescore barrels, laid below,
To prove old England's overthrow.
But, by God's providence, him they catch,
With a dark lantern, lighting a match!
A stick and a stake
For King James's sake!
If you won't give me one,
I'll take two,
The better for me,
And the worse for you.
A rope, a rope, to hang the Pope,
A penn'orth of cheese to choke him,
A pint of beer to wash it down,
And a jolly good fire to burn him.
Holloa, boys! holloa, boys! make the bells ring!
Holloa, boys! holloa boys! God save the King!
Hip, hip, hooor-r-r-ray!
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Post by ShivaTD on Nov 5, 2013 19:02:17 GMT
Celebrating Fawkes Hawkes Day (an American born in New York City before the American Revolution but an American nonetheless) that is specifically related to a failed terrorist assassination attempt in a religious war between Spanish Catholics with Dutch and British Protestants that went on for 80 years..... and that was used to promote anti-Catholic hatred and prejudice for a couple hundred years in Britain...... hmmmmmmm
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Post by Leo on Nov 5, 2013 22:40:36 GMT
Celebrating Fawkes Hawkes Day (an American born in New York City before the American Revolution but an American nonetheless) that is specifically related to a failed terrorist assassination attempt in a religious war between Spanish Catholics with Dutch and British Protestants that went on for 80 years..... and that was used to promote anti-Catholic hatred and prejudice for a couple hundred years in Britain...... hmmmmmmm
We British celebrate Bonfire Night to commemorate the survival of our system of governance, and the thwarting of treason - I doubt any Brit has an anti-Catholic or anti-Protestant thought on Bonfire Night. It is just a night of fun.
As a perhaps interesting aside, it is because of Guy Fawkes that Americans came to use the term 'guy' to denote a man (and later, a person of either gender). After the foiled gunpowder plot, 'guy' became a derogatory and insulting term in England, but Americans (particularly after their own high treason  ) had so little interaction with the mother country, they lost the context of the original term, and began using it as a more general term for a man. As with all things American, in the age of electronic media that misnomer spread to the rest of the English speaking world (although we do not use 'guy' in the case of females). I do not like the term - it is too hackneyed - and there are perfectly good English colloquial alternatives available - such as 'bloke', 'chap', fellow, etc.
And lastly, the name Guy is of Norman-French origin, and the pronunciation is close to 'gee' (with a hard 'g') so even the way we say the word is incorrect.
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Post by ShivaTD on Nov 6, 2013 0:59:29 GMT
I stand corrected on where Guy Fawkes was born but I still find it interesting that the British have a celebration day based upon promoting anti-Catholic hatred and prejudice. While that purpose has mostly lost it's meaning today it is still the root of the "celebration" historically.
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Post by Leo on Nov 6, 2013 9:04:02 GMT
I stand corrected on where Guy Fawkes was born but I still find it interesting that the British have a celebration day based upon promoting anti-Catholic hatred and prejudice. While that purpose has mostly lost it's meaning today it is still the root of the "celebration" historically.
I do not deny that Fawkes and his co-conspirators wanted a Catholic Monarch on the English throne, and that he was a Catholic convert, but religious prejudice is a two-way street, and I imagine the celebrations were primarily prompted by relief even back in 1605. Calling it a celebration of anti-Catholic hatred is as valid as calling the 4th of July a celebration of anti-British hatred. And BTW, I am largely agnostic, so I am not taking sides. 
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Post by cenydd on Nov 6, 2013 9:55:34 GMT
..... I still find it interesting that the British have a celebration day based upon promoting anti-Catholic hatred and prejudice. While that purpose has mostly lost it's meaning today it is still the root of the "celebration" historically.
The anti-Catholic thing has long since gone from most of the UK (aside from NI and parts of Scotland, of course), and like most 'celebrations' it's nothing more than an excuse for a party. It's certainly no more strange a thing to 'celebrate' than Halloween! |
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Post by ShivaTD on Nov 6, 2013 10:45:42 GMT
..... I still find it interesting that the British have a celebration day based upon promoting anti-Catholic hatred and prejudice. While that purpose has mostly lost it's meaning today it is still the root of the "celebration" historically.
The anti-Catholic thing has long since gone from most of the UK (aside from NI and parts of Scotland, of course), and like most 'celebrations' it's nothing more than an excuse for a party. It's certainly no more strange a thing to 'celebrate' than Halloween!
As historically noted though the 80-year war was a religious based war and for much of the history thereafter there were very anti-Catholic religious prejudice in the UK and some still remains. Not to be alone there was heavy anti-Catholic prejudice in the United States for most of our history as well and some still remains. While I was young I remember the Republicans playing the "Religion" card in an attempt to defeat JFK in 1960 because Kennedy was a Catholic. |
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Post by africanhope on Nov 7, 2013 14:26:25 GMT
Leo, read the poem above - the anti Catholics language is clear - calling for the Pope to be hanged!
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Post by Leo on Nov 7, 2013 15:05:58 GMT
Leo, read the poem above - the anti Catholics language is clear - calling for the Pope to be hanged!
That was 400 years ago, and this is now, and it is ludicrous to regard Bonfire Night as being a celebration of anti-Catholic hatred. Neither I, nor anyone I know, has ever regarded it as such.
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Post by ShivaTD on Nov 7, 2013 21:43:25 GMT
Leo, read the poem above - the anti Catholics language is clear - calling for the Pope to be hanged!
That was 400 years ago, and this is now, and it is ludicrous to regard Bonfire Night as being a celebration of anti-Catholic hatred. Neither I, nor anyone I know, has ever regarded it as such.
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Post by ShivaTD on Nov 7, 2013 22:01:53 GMT
BTW In response to an earlier comment.
The last time I checked the Declaration of Independence did not call for King George to the hung nor does it promote anti-British hatred in any way. I does provide a list of grievances against England that justified the Declaration itself but it never promoted hatred or the murder of anyone.
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Post by Leo on Nov 8, 2013 10:49:00 GMT
Ah, but is the "song" still sung? If so then it is anti-Catholic even today.
The last time I checked the Declaration of Independence did not call for King George to the hung nor does it promote anti-British hatred in any way. I does provide a list of grievances against England that justified the Declaration itself but it never promoted hatred or the murder of anyone.
I never suggested it did, I just said celebrating the 4th of July is analagous to celebrating Bonfire Night, and the case that either is promoting religious or secular hatred is unfounded. Please, pay me the compliment of assuming I have some idea of what goes on in the society in which I have grown up.
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Post by ShivaTD on Nov 8, 2013 11:15:17 GMT
I think what is important to note is that holidays evolve over time and there are numerous examples with perhaps the most notable being Christmas. Originally it was the pagan celebration of the winter solstice, later adopted by Christians as a religious holiday, and today Christmas is generally a secular holiday celebrating friends and family without much if any religious connotation by tens or hunderds of millions of people.
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Post by dangermouse on Nov 8, 2013 20:31:18 GMT
The British national anthem has a couple of verses which are rarely sung due to their anti-Scottish nature, reflecting the time in which the song was written.
General Wade has the distinction of featuring in its second verse, which is now considered anti-Scottish and is no longer sung.
The words of the offending verse are:
"Lord, grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush and like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush.
God save the King.
Another verse begs Wade to ‘confound their politics, Frustrate their knavish tricks...’ This verse was rewritten to cover all enemies of Great Britain, and not just Scots.
The Fawkes poem has never in my experience been recited past the first verse. People in Britain find the encroachment of the "trick or Treat" threatening aspect of Halloween unnerving while being content to stick with the familiar ritual burning in effigy of the "Guy". There's a town on the South Coast where every year there's another unpopular politician put up there on the bonfire. They might even have burned OBL!
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Post by ShivaTD on Nov 8, 2013 21:13:25 GMT
Sometimes there's a legitimate reason to revise a national song or "statement" if it contains content that is no longer acceptable.
Of course the opposite can also be true as we experienced in the United States when the words "under god" were added to the Pledge of Allegiance in the 1950's because we're not a Nation founded upon a belief in God or under the authority of any god. We know the rationalization for that revision and Christians wanted to differentiate Americans from the "Godless Rooskies" which really was off topic because it was tyranny in the USSR that Americans were opposed to and not the fact that the leaders didn't believe in god. The Christians also managed to rationalize changing the National Motto at same time from E Pluribus Unum (From Many One) that had existed since Day One in the United States to "In God We Trust" that was added to our coinage in the mid-19th Century by other Christians.
Back to the point. In some cases we should also be willing to change the name of a holiday as well so that we can abandon an divisive or offensive original foundation for the holiday. I liked "Bonfire Night" as opposed to "Guy Fawkes Day" when it was mentioned. Guy Fawkes Day was based upon anti-Catholic prejudice and it is long since time for that prejudice to be discarded and "Bonfire Night" can discard that "luggage" for the future much as it already has for most British today. Perhaps also change the date for "Bonfire Night" from Nov 5th to the first Saturday in November to make a clean break from Guy Fawkes Day.
I'd like the same thing to happen with Christmas as it is no longer really a Christian holiday but instead has become a holiday for everyone regardless of their religious beliefs or lack of any religious beliefs at least in the United States. My thought would be to leave "Christmas" alone for Christians as a religious day and simply come up with a new secular holiday based upon the winter solstice which was the origin of the holiday to begin with. December 25th would not be associated at all with the national holiday that would revolve around the actual date of the winter solstice instead. It would be non-offensive for Christians because they could keep the religious day for themselves while all Americans could celebrate the winter solstice. I like that solution and Christians might as well because I know some are offended by the commercialization of "their" religious holiday.
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) had so little interaction with the mother country, they lost the context of the original term, and began using it as a more general term for a man. As with all things American, in the age of electronic media that misnomer spread to the rest of the English speaking world (although we do not use 'guy' in the case of females). I do not like the term - it is too hackneyed - and there are perfectly good English colloquial alternatives available - such as 'bloke', 'chap', fellow, etc.
