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Post by Admin on Aug 5, 2013 8:30:32 GMT
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Post by Oddquine on Aug 5, 2013 14:21:46 GMT
I hope they are not holding their breath...as most of the information they are saying they want can only be definitively accessed by the UK...as the current member of everything international. The Scottish Government, Yes Scotland et al do provide detailed papers and statements on key questions...but can only interpret in a situation in which we have to vote for Independence before anyone will discuss anything regarding what will happen after Independence.
Had to laugh at this bit, though! It is something I won't be holding my breath waiting for as it just isn't going to happen! (by that I mean any promises from UK parties ahead of a No vote.)
"It also argued that Labour, the Tories and Liberal Democrats should set out their proposals for further devolution in the event of a No vote.
The society said it wanted to know what further powers each of the parties proposed transferring to Holyrood, what the time-scale for this would be and if Labour, the Conservatives and Lib Dems were prepared to agree a joint programme on this."
Given the Republic of Ireland didn't have all these UK invented problems when they gained Independence...they got to keep the pound, they had no border controls etc...it does rather make one wonder if we should have gone the bearing arms and killing route, rather than try to do it peacefully with a political agreement.
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Post by cenydd on Aug 6, 2013 8:59:34 GMT
Given the Republic of Ireland didn't have all these UK invented problems when they gained Independence...they got to keep the pound, they had no border controls etc...it does rather make one wonder if we should have gone the bearing arms and killing route, rather than try to do it peacefully with a political agreement. I know what you mean. I know there is a body of opinion (which I share) in at least one of the UK parties that they should be being more upfront about things, and maintaining a much more 'neutral' line of being the arbiters of fact and open democratic choice for the people of Scotland, rather than involving themselves directly in the 'No' campaign as some of their prominent members have been doing. There seems to be alot of silly scaremongering from the 'No' camp, and it doesn't help the debate at all. Of course, in reaction to that Alec Salmond probably isn't being as entirely upfront about everything as he should be either, which also isn't helping. I do understand that there's no point in hammering out every single precise detail in advance of the vote, since it might not be necessary at all, but the UK unionist side does seem to be taking a line of 'we're not going to bother at all because we don't think it's going to happen', which is at best lazy, and at worst lacking in honesty. It may come to bite them in the behind ultimately, though - I'm sure the people of Scotland don't really appreciate them refusing to let them know how things are likely to pan out a bit more than they have been doing!
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Post by Oddquine on Aug 22, 2013 21:24:13 GMT
Given the Republic of Ireland didn't have all these UK invented problems when they gained Independence...they got to keep the pound, they had no border controls etc...it does rather make one wonder if we should have gone the bearing arms and killing route, rather than try to do it peacefully with a political agreement. I know what you mean. I know there is a body of opinion (which I share) in at least one of the UK parties that they should be being more upfront about things, and maintaining a much more 'neutral' line of being the arbiters of fact and open democratic choice for the people of Scotland, rather than involving themselves directly in the 'No' campaign as some of their prominent members have been doing. There seems to be alot of silly scaremongering from the 'No' camp, and it doesn't help the debate at all. Of course, in reaction to that Alec Salmond probably isn't being as entirely upfront about everything as he should be either, which also isn't helping. I do understand that there's no point in hammering out every single precise detail in advance of the vote, since it might not be necessary at all, but the UK unionist side does seem to be taking a line of 'we're not going to bother at all because we don't think it's going to happen', which is at best lazy, and at worst lacking in honesty. It may come to bite them in the behind ultimately, though - I'm sure the people of Scotland don't really appreciate them refusing to let them know how things are likely to pan out a bit more than they have been doing! This rant is (so far) a half bottle of red fueled....and may be fueled by a bottle by the end of it ! I am of the opinion that the Unionist Parties can't afford to be more upfront, because upfront will mean they will have to flag up their policies ahead of the 2015 election. At this stage in the game, they are bound to have some idea as to what the UK will be like after 2015. We, in Scotland, know we will get the useless and utterly pointless Tory "line in the sand" of The Scotland Act 2012 implemented....and the Tories (or is it the Coalition) have given hints as to actions even further on than 2015. (Its sometimes hard to work out if Cameron is speaking for the Coalition or just the Tories with his flights of fancy re post 2015 possiblities in UK Government.). And given that NuLabour know that to gain power, they have to carry more than ten constituencies in London and the South in our UK Electoral non-democracy, they have pretty much said that little will change bar dickering around the austerity edges. So all the No Campaign has left as a response to the pro-independence campaign is scaremongering, lies, misrepresentation and generally a reprise (but more so, because now they can add in international relations etc) of the 1979 Referendum No Campaign which killed off, as far as Westminster was concerned, having to think about the population of Scotland for the following twenty years, until the SNP became a force to be worried about. Devolution is purely and simply a method of maintaining Westminster overall control of all issues which, in Scottish hands, could benefit Scotland but would reduce the benefit to the rest of the UK....and the theoretically failed (due to the only time any UK vote required more than a simple majority to be accepted) devolution referendum in 1979 amply illustrates that if we vote NO this time, we are where we were in 1979........ignored and ignorable.....whatever the various UK political parties promise. As far as I can see, although I am admittedly biased, Alex Salmond and the SNP are basing their forecasts (as on what they would do, which isn't necessarily what any other elected Scottish Government would do come 2016) on the interpretation of International Law provided by their lawyers, just as the UK bases their interpretation on the opinions of their lawyers.......and economically on the figures provided by the UK Government. Whether you like Alex Salmond or don't.....and a lot of the pro-union opinion in Scotland is because they don't like Alex Salmond......he and his team have done as well, if not better, than the UK Government has so far re balancing budgets and meeting our requirements to a greater or lesser extent, within their restricted abilities...and that is mostly why he got his unexpected, and UK specifically planned against, majority in 2011. Seems to me if Westminster can't accept they have a real problem to be addressed with the Scottish reluctance to become right-wing British for as long as London and the South want it, then a No vote in 2014 won't hold uncontested for even one generation....far less for the three generations all the No campaigners assume they will be able to ignore us after a failure to achieve independence next year.
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Post by bobbins on Aug 22, 2013 21:34:46 GMT
Who cares? Just let the petty Scottish nationalists go their own way. End their whine for the crack!
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Post by Oddquine on Aug 24, 2013 23:55:08 GMT
Who cares? Just let the petty Scottish nationalists go their own way. End their whine for the crack! That's me out of here until after the referendum....I'm rapidly running out of forums worth posting in. I'm more than happy to discuss the pros and cons of the offered referendum options......and the factual (or as near factual as you'll ever get in politics) opinions of each side.........but it appears that, wherever you go....whichever forum, social media etc......you will always get utter *top dude*s, with nothing to say which could remotely be described as discussion, coming on to make pointless comments and insult with impunity..and, frankly, I am sick of it. But hey....undecided people reading the likes of that from Unionists may well be encouraged to wonder if they really want to be connected to them forever. A devo-max/federal option, if it had been offered, would have saved the Union, without a doubt....I wouldn't have liked it, but I could have lived with it...but a part of the reason that the SNP got its majority, against the UK decided odds in 2011, was to a large extent down to the negativity, insults lies etc emanating from the UK parties in the run-up. I can only hope the same thing appertains in 2014......because if it does......Independence is a given.
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