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Post by Professor Peabody on Aug 19, 2013 21:39:17 GMT
Over 300 Mexican citizens dead and 2 American Law Enforcement Agents are logged to he Obama administrations Fast & Furious body count. I think Holder should be charged with one count of Criminally Neglegent Manslaughter for each person killed with a fast and Furious Gun. It's not like he didn't know.........
Listen closely at the 57 second mark. He specifically mentions "Project Gunrunner". They knowingly were running guns that were supposed to be stopped at the border. Of the about 2000 guns that made it across, there are still 1400 guns who's whereabouts are unknown.
As long as Holder is the AG, I doubt any of those dead folks will get justice.
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Post by JP5 on Aug 19, 2013 22:42:20 GMT
AND both Holder and Obama should be charged for engaging in a cover-up of it. But of course, it's not the only thing they've covered up....so what else is new. Good to see at least someone inside CBS is not afraid of them.....or doesn't have her head so far up their backside, she can't see, like the rest of the liberal press/media does.
And to think.....that was Obama and Holder who did this. And yet, crickets from the liberal press as far as holding them accountable. They ONLY hold conservative administrations feet to the fire; NEVER liberal ones.....
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Post by Professor Peabody on Aug 20, 2013 9:59:26 GMT
Attorney Generals should be appointed by the opposite party that's in the White House. That's the only way to keep 'em honest it seems.
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Post by ShivaTD on Aug 20, 2013 11:56:16 GMT
Attorney Generals should be appointed by the opposite party that's in the White House. That's the only way to keep 'em honest it seems.
We do need to note that Operation Gunrunner, that Operation Fast and Furious was just continuation of, began under Alberto Gonzales and we must assume that he reviewed it before it's implementation. Should Eric Holder have revisited the decision by Gonzales is certainly a valid question. Should every administration review everything established by prior administrations or should they assume that their predecessor's decisions were good decisions?
In this case I do believe that Holder should have reviewed the Gonzales' decision because Gonzales proved to be completely incompetent as the Attorney General IMHO.
I'm even not sure that Holder knew about this going on because it appears to be that the Arizona ATF office was working under the prior authorizations and directions from the Bush administration. Who knows for sure? It appears to be a low level field office operation that wouldn't come to the attention of the AG much less the President.
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Post by JP5 on Aug 20, 2013 16:19:18 GMT
Attorney Generals should be appointed by the opposite party that's in the White House. That's the only way to keep 'em honest it seems.
We do need to note that Operation Gunrunner, that Operation Fast and Furious was just continuation of, began under Alberto Gonzales and we must assume that he reviewed it before it's implementation. Should Eric Holder have revisited the decision by Gonzales is certainly a valid question. Should every administration review everything established by prior administrations or should they assume that their predecessor's decisions were good decisions?
In this case I do believe that Holder should have reviewed the Gonzales' decision because Gonzales proved to be completely incompetent as the Attorney General IMHO.
I'm even not sure that Holder knew about this going on because it appears to be that the Arizona ATF office was working under the prior authorizations and directions from the Bush administration. Who knows for sure? It appears to be a low level field office operation that wouldn't come to the attention of the AG much less the President.
Oh here we go again: "Bush did it too.....Bush did it too...." Always the excuses when it comes to Obama.... But actually Bush didn't do what Obama and Holder did. Obama and Holder botched their program and did not follow up....some say on purpose to allow the guns into Mexico so they could use that as a gun issue. Obama and Holder lost 2000 guns that they are responsible for being in the hands of drug cartels, etc......and it's resulted in 300+ deaths so far, including 2 U.S. border agents. Fast & Furious is Obama and Holder's program and that is what this OP is about. |
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Post by ShivaTD on Aug 20, 2013 21:27:57 GMT
Oh here we go again: "Bush did it too.....Bush did it too...." Always the excuses when it comes to Obama.... But actually Bush didn't do what Obama and Holder did. Obama and Holder botched their program and did not follow up....some say on purpose to allow the guns into Mexico so they could use that as a gun issue. Obama and Holder lost 2000 guns that they are responsible for being in the hands of drug cartels, etc......and it's resulted in 300+ deaths so far, including 2 U.S. border agents. Fast & Furious is Obama and Holder's program and that is what this OP is about.
Operation Fast and Furious was carried out by the Phoenix Arizona Field Office of the ATF it was a part of Project Gun Runner. There is no question that the head of the Arizona ATF Field Office was incompetent and should be condemned but the entire Project Gun Runner program was ill-advised to begin with.
Beginning in 2006-2007 Operation Wide Receiver allowed over 400 guns to "walk across the border" (only 64 of the 474 guns were recovered) and why the project wasn't shut down immediately remains an unanswered question.
What annoys me the most is the distortion of the news this time by CBS. The deaths in Mexico are not because of the guns being used. Guns don't commit crimes, people do. The deaths are a result of the War on Drugs. It is the prohibition of drugs that created the black market and the drug cartels and it's the drug cartels committing the murders.
If we want to address the reason behind the murders then let's do that.
It is the drug prohibition laws that create a black market in drugs that creates the violence. We should have learned this after the alcohol prohibition disaster of the 1920's-1930's that resulted in gangland murder in the US. We continue the same authoritarian government practices of social engineering that result in violence and murder that our government shouldn't be involved in to begin with. Thousands so of innocent victims are being murdered and it has absolutely nothing to do with them doing drugs. The United States has the highest per capital imprisonment rate in the world and most on in prison for victimless crimes associated with drug usage and not violent crime. The War on Drugs has cost trillions of dollars, has not reduced drug usage, and has created more violent crime than any other single motive.
Want to end this senseless murder then End the War on Drugs. Stop blaming the guns for the violence. |
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Post by JP5 on Aug 20, 2013 21:38:34 GMT
Attorney Generals should be appointed by the opposite party that's in the White House. That's the only way to keep 'em honest it seems. |
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Post by ShivaTD on Aug 20, 2013 21:42:28 GMT
Listen closely at the 57 second mark. He specifically mentions "Project Gunrunner". They knowingly were running guns that were supposed to be stopped at the border. Of the about 2000 guns that made it across, there are still 1400 guns who's whereabouts are unknown.
The DOJ should have know by 2008 that Project Gunrunner was feeding firearms into the hands of the Mexican drug cartels as opposed to stopping the flow of guns to the cartels. |
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Post by JP5 on Aug 20, 2013 21:47:47 GMT
I Oh here we go again: "Bush did it too.....Bush did it too...." Always the excuses when it comes to Obama.... But actually Bush didn't do what Obama and Holder did. Obama and Holder botched their program and did not follow up....some say on purpose to allow the guns into Mexico so they could use that as a gun issue. Obama and Holder lost 2000 guns that they are responsible for being in the hands of drug cartels, etc......and it's resulted in 300+ deaths so far, including 2 U.S. border agents. Fast & Furious is Obama and Holder's program and that is what this OP is about.
Operation Fast and Furious was carried out by the Phoenix Arizona Field Office of the ATF it was a part of Project Gun Runner. There is no question that the head of the Arizona ATF Field Office was incompetent and should be condemned but the entire Project Gun Runner program was ill-advised to begin with.
Beginning in 2006-2007 Operation Wide Receiver allowed over 400 guns to "walk across the border" (only 64 of the 474 guns were recovered) and why the project wasn't shut down immediately remains an unanswered question.
What annoys me the most is the distortion of the news this time by CBS. The deaths in Mexico are not because of the guns being used. Guns don't commit crimes, people do. The deaths are a result of the War on Drugs. It is the prohibition of drugs that created the black market and the drug cartels and it's the drug cartels committing the murders.
If we want to address the reason behind the murders then let's do that.
It is the drug prohibition laws that create a black market in drugs that creates the violence. We should have learned this after the alcohol prohibition disaster of the 1920's-1930's that resulted in gangland murder in the US. We continue the same authoritarian government practices of social engineering that result in violence and murder that our government shouldn't be involved in to begin with. Thousands so of innocent victims are being murdered and it has absolutely nothing to do with them doing drugs. The United States has the highest per capital imprisonment rate in the world and most on in prison for victimless crimes associated with drug usage and not violent crime. The War on Drugs has cost trillions of dollars, has not reduced drug usage, and has created more violent crime than any other single motive.
Want to end this senseless murder then End the War on Drugs. Stop blaming the guns for the violence. It's always about what someone else did. Bush was president for 8 years and he was discussed during that time period....a LOT. The OP is about Obama's program....Fast and Furious. |
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Post by ShivaTD on Aug 20, 2013 21:50:09 GMT
Attorney Generals should be appointed by the opposite party that's in the White House. That's the only way to keep 'em honest it seems. |
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Post by JP5 on Aug 20, 2013 22:04:52 GMT
They were after someone in the Bush administration.....not someone in the Pentagon who wasn't even a fan of Bush's (Armitage). Armitage was believed when he told the prosecutor that he thought her previous covert status was no longer in place and since everyone in D.C. knew who she was and who she worked for.....that it wasn't a secret. Another source inside the Pentagon even confirmed her name to Robt Novak. So.....the entire thing was political in the first place.
I see you've managed to changed the subject entirely now.
Now. Back to Fast & Furious.
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Post by ShivaTD on Aug 20, 2013 22:08:23 GMT
I Obama has been president for almost 5 years now....and yet you still refuse to discuss or debate anything OBAMA or his administration has done. It's always about what someone else did. Bush was president for 8 years and he was discussed during that time period....a LOT. The OP is about Obama's program....Fast and Furious.
When it comes to Fast and Furious, which was an on-going part of Project Gunrunner, it is highly doubtful that President Obama had any personal knowledge about it. It was a small operation out of just one ATF Field Office in Phoenix and I seriously doubt the President is briefed on the operations out of every ATF office in the US.
Is there any evidence that President Obama even knew what the Phoenix ATF office was doing?
I even doubt that Eric Holder knew that Project Gunrunner had already been allowing hundreds of firearms to walk across the border and he probably didn't know the specifics of Fast and Furious with any detail. It wasn't that big of a thing until it went wrong in a big way.
And, by the way, former President Bush should still be prosecuted for war crimes and crimes against humanity by the International Court of Justice in the Hague but that is a different story. |
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Post by ShivaTD on Aug 20, 2013 22:14:09 GMT
They were after someone in the Bush administration.....not someone in the Pentagon who wasn't even a fan of Bush's (Armitage). Armitage was believed when he told the prosecutor that he thought her previous covert status was no longer in place and since everyone in D.C. knew who she was and who she worked for.....that it wasn't a secret. Another source inside the Pentagon even confirmed her name to Robt Novak. So.....the entire thing was political in the first place.
I see you've managed to changed the subject entirely now.
Now. Back to Fast & Furious. |
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Post by Professor Peabody on Aug 28, 2013 4:01:06 GMT
Listen closely at the 57 second mark. This press conference took place on TV March 2009. I find it very hard to believe Obama didn't know. It was on TV!
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Post by ShivaTD on Aug 28, 2013 11:51:35 GMT
Listen closely at the 57 second mark. This press conference took place on TV March 2009. I find it very hard to believe Obama didn't know. It was on TV!
Once again though I'd point to the distortion by the news media that Fast and Furious lead to the deaths of anyone. It is the War on Drugs and drug prohibition laws that are the cause behind the murders and not the firearms being used or where those firearms originate.
I'm going to merely point to the hypocrisy of the "right" when they argue that firearms don't cause crime when it comes to gun control laws but then say that the "guns" from Fast and Furious are the cause of crime.
It isn't the guns but instead the drug prohibition laws that are creating the violent crime. BTW I oppose these "sting" operations by government because the government is encouraging crime as opposed to fighting it, they fail in their objectives more often than not (as was the case in Project Gun Runner), and they often result in entrapment. |
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