|
|
Post by ShivaTD on Sept 8, 2013 11:56:41 GMT
From a libertarian perspective I've addressed the specifics of unfair taxation in America that "conservatives" continue to say doesn't exist. We can prove that the tax burden relative to income is far greater on workers than it is on wealthy investors and I've done so but "conservatives" continue to live in denial of that. From a personal standpoint (anecdotally) I paid over twice the federal tax rate that Mitt Romney (only because I know how much he paid in taxes) in 2011 while Mitt Romney had over 200-times my income that year. I've presented two threads in the libertarianism forum, one addressing state taxation and one addressing federal taxation, that would correct the inequities in taxation in the United States and "conservatives" on this forum seem to be avoiding those threads like the plague. Are they afraid of having to admit that our current tax codes are grossly unfair to low and middle income workers? Don't they want to support tax reform that would actually result in workers being treated fairly when it comes to taxation? I would invite "conservatives" to address fair taxation either here or on specific proposals that would result in fair taxation that would benefit the workers of America. Here's link to my two threads if they're willing to address specifics or they can comment here if they want to debate whether our tax codes are currently fair. They might even be able to provide good suggestions on how to make my proposals better as I never claim them to be perfect. worldpf.com/thread/350/fixing-state-taxation-united-states worldpf.com/thread/274/on-federal-taxation-united-states |
|
|
|
Post by albert on Sept 9, 2013 19:32:32 GMT
Many conservatives are in the process of being radicalized. Having already passed through that process my observation is that we are past the point where tax reform matters. The real issue is the size and power of govt. The unfair tax system is merely a symptom of a far deeper problem. Personally, I think discussion of tax reform now is a waste of time because liberals aren't interested in reform. They are interested in increased revenue. This being the case there is no sense in engaging them. |
|
|
|
Post by ShivaTD on Sept 10, 2013 10:32:10 GMT
Many conservatives are in the process of being radicalized. Having already passed through that process my observation is that we are past the point where tax reform matters. The real issue is the size and power of govt. The unfair tax system is merely a symptom of a far deeper problem. Personally, I think discussion of tax reform now is a waste of time because liberals aren't interested in reform. They are interested in increased revenue. This being the case there is no sense in engaging them.
The middle class is disappearing and has been at least since 2001. Real wages dropped by 7% for whites that used to represent the middle class and by over 12% for African-Americans that used to represent low income workers between 2007-2009 alone and the new jobs being added to the economy are almost all low paying jobs. Poverty has dramatically increased virtually doubling in the last four years. At the same time the wealthy are becoming the super-wealthy. Unemployment above 4% used to be considered high unemployment but it has to be over 7% before its considered high unemployment. The US used to have GDP growth above 3.5% but now even 2% GDP growth in unattainable. The national debt basically doubled between 2001-2009 under Bush and trebled between 2001-2012 when we combine both Bush and Obama deficits. The wealthy, that are becoming the super-wealthy, have the lowest tax burden relative to income in the United States when 'total' taxation is addressed where both state and federal taxes are imposed on the individual household.
Two facts are abundantly clear.
1. We must pay for the authorized expenditures of government and the poor and disappearing middle class can't afford to pay more in taxes.
2. The disparity of tax burden relative to income is destroying the middle class in America.
I understand that we have a "do nothing Congress" as to all of the American People which is why the poll numbers for Congress are below about 15% and have been for years. At least the Democrats brought up the fact that we have unfair taxation although they didn't express how bad the problem really is.
For rank and file Republicans they need to understand that if they're not already in the top 5% living in luxury then they're going to end up as one of the 90% living in poverty if something is done about the taxation because in the not too distant future everyone in the bottom 90% is going to be living in poverty.
|
|
|
|
Post by JP5 on Sept 11, 2013 8:01:34 GMT
The "rich" who you don't like so much.......pays the same rate in sales taxes as the poor. And since they purchase a whole LOT more goods....things like expensive cars, boats, suits, and go on expensive vacations to places like Martha's Vineyard's...that mean they pay the bulk of the total sales tax. Their ability to purchase a whole lot more......keeps a lot of people working and a lot of companies in business. I recall years ago when the liberals fought for and won a "luxury tax" on yachts. They really felt good about "sticking it to the rich," but in reality all they did was hurt the workers who were put out of work by making the cost of purchasing a yacht less desirable for even those who could afford it. It's always the unintended consequences that liberals do not consider. Lawmakers ended up reversing that punitive tax.
I've been rich and I've been poor in my lifetime The times where I was "rich"......it was not unusual to pay 6 figures in federal income taxes to the government. That's a whole LOT of money.....just because I did the things I was supposed to do which was to 1) study and get an education, 2) live within my means and not overspend, 3) save, and 4) live by the rules and make the right choices in life. If my neighbor growing up didn't make the right choices......overspent, didn't save, got into drugs and didn't study or try to better themselves....then why should I subsidize them because I did? I'm all for helping out people who tried, but who through no fault of their own suffered setbacks in life. But there's an awful of people who simply didn't try and had the mentality that someone else would take care of them.
I learned those ethics from my carpenter father.....who was a hard worker who always managed to support the family and make sure we didn't go without the necessities in life.....like shelter, food, and clothing. Growing up, my family did not have health insurance----when we got sick and had to go to the doctor, my Dad paid it out on time. We lived within our means. And I had a great childhood knowing that I could achieve the American dream through study and hard work and making the right choices in life. Choices like.....NOT getting into drugs; NOT buying things on time that I could not afford. I was the first in my family to ever go to college; much less graduate as I did. Same with my husband. We paid for it ourselves, working our way through. Even when I was poor, I did not demonize or hate the rich.
Yes, Romney might pay a lesser bottom line effective tax rate than you....due to all that he can deduct. But in total, he pays a WHOLE lot more that you....or I.....do. The reason he can deduct certain things is because our legislators know that it is the rich who support the investments in our country, who hire the workers and provide them benefits, and who take the financial risks that keep our country going. You take away those incentives, and it only hurts the middle class and lower classes; it does not help them. When we've got almost 50% of the nation on some kind of federal subsidy; someone has to pay for that. And that's what the rich do. Oh....and the federal rate is about the marginal tax rate. IF your marginal tax rate is 15% and his is 39.5%......then on the next dollar you make, you'll pay 15 cents in taxes; but on the next dollar he makes, he'll pay 39.5 cents in federal taxes. I think that's plenty "fair" for the middle and lower classes. We don't want to kill someone's incentive for investing in the country.....though businesses and financial investments in others companies. ALL of that is good for the middle class.
|
|
|
|
Post by fred on Sept 11, 2013 9:07:03 GMT
Fair tax is a dream for the poor and stupid.
If a man becomes rich because he works hard, there's no reason he should be taxed at a stupid rate by some demi commie too lazy to try the same himself.
(Indofred - but couldn't access account so re-registered)
|
|
|
|
Post by ShivaTD on Sept 11, 2013 10:00:23 GMT
Fair tax is a dream for the poor and stupid. If a man becomes rich because he works hard, there's no reason he should be taxed at a stupid rate by some demi commie too lazy to try the same himself. (Indofred - but couldn't access account so re-registered)
I would assume that the reference to the "Fair Tax" is a reference to the FairTax.org proposal which I've also rejected in my thread on federal taxation. Might I suggest going to that thread and addressing the proposal that I've made instead of making comments about tax proposals that have been rejected.
Statistically a person cannot become rich by "working hard" in America. The American middle class and the American Dream are disappearing. The hopes we once had that our children would be better off than we are is gone. Only the top 5% are getting wealthier while the workers of America are being driven into poverty. The over-riding reason for this is that the workers carry a much higher tax burden relative to income than the non-workers (i.e. investors) at both the state and federal level of taxation.
Once again I suggest going to the specific threads on State and Federal taxation linked in the OP because they do establish "fair taxation" in America where everyone is subjected to the identical tax rules. There are no special tax loopholes for the wealthy 5% of Americans where they only pay 1/2 the tax rates of the workers. Better yet the federal proposal eliminates deficit spending and funds the authorized expenditures by our government (something that neither Democrats or Republicans are proposing).
|
|
|
|
Post by albert on Sept 12, 2013 3:34:32 GMT
Shiva, do you think radicalized conservatives are simply going to roll over and act like dairy cattle for folks that we absolutely hate? I think a paralyzed America is preferable to a Leftist Amerika. A Leftist Amerika would be the greatest evil in the world.
There can be no compromise. One side or the other will win completely and figuratively extirpate the other side's ideas, or Uncle Sam will die in the struggle between left and right. That seems to be the inexorable way this will play out.
|
|
|
|
Post by ShivaTD on Sept 12, 2013 12:53:01 GMT
Shiva, do you think radicalized conservatives are simply going to roll over and act like dairy cattle for folks that we absolutely hate?
Why do "radicalized conservatives" hate the low and middle income workers in America that have the highest tax burden relative to income at both the federal and state level of taxation?
The issue of "fair taxation" is not a partisan issue because it's an American issue that needs to be resolved. That is the mistake that "radicalized conservatives" seem to miss. Unfair taxation where the wealthy have a substantially lower tax burden relative to income affects everyone regardless of their political ideology. This unfair taxation is a primary cause for the loss of the American Dream and the disappearing Middle Class in America and that is adversely affecting Democrats and Republicans alike.
When real income declined by 7% for whites in American over the last couple of years it wasn't only Democrats that had their standard of living decrease. When the top 1% of Americans capture 95% of the growth of wealth in American they're not just taking it from Democrats. Republicans are losing too as their standard of living decreases.
It is an American Issue so when radicalized conservatives "hate" someone they're "hating" the American workers because it's the American workers that are suffering from unfair taxation.
|
|
|
|
Post by albert on Sept 14, 2013 7:18:39 GMT
Most radicalized conservatives are members of the white working class/middle class. They are our people. It is to them that my obligations flow and to no others. To me...they are the only group with which I am connected besides East Asians. There are bigger fish to fry than tax reform.
|
|
|
|
Post by ShivaTD on Nov 15, 2013 13:58:05 GMT
Most radicalized conservatives are members of the white working class/middle class. They are our people. It is to them that my obligations flow and to no others. To me...they are the only group with which I am connected besides East Asians. There are bigger fish to fry than tax reform.
A small business owner with $70,000 in net annual income would be in a 15% income tax bracket (married filing a joint return) and would pay $9,600 in earned income taxes (the combined 10% rate and 15% rate imposed on that income) plus they're required to pay another 15.3% in Self-employment taxes, or $10,700, for a total of over $20,000 in federal taxes alone. That's a combined tax burden of over 28.6% for that small business owner in federal taxes alone!
Another person with the identical $70,000 in net annual income has a ZERO Percent tax obligation under the Capital Gains tax loophole. The investor, regardless of income, never even comes close to ever paying 28% in taxes on their net income even if they earned $1 billion/yr!!!
Can even a "conservative" state that the small business owner isn't being screwed by our tax codes? Shouldn't "conservatives" be up in arms over this obvious discrimination in our tax codes against a "middle-class" working American regardless of the race of that person?
|
|
I'm all for helping out people who tried, but who through no fault of their own suffered setbacks in life. But there's an awful of people who simply didn't try and had the mentality that someone else would take care of them. 
