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Post by cenydd on Sept 10, 2013 10:04:53 GMT
www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/10297497/UK-on-mend-with-game-changing-year-for-jobs.htmlPerhaps 'Plan A' isn't quite so bad as the Labour Party have been desperately trying to claim (along with desperately trying to ignore the fact that they were responsible for the crisis and massive deficit in the first place, of course!). It was very noticeable over the weekend that the Labour Party suddenly and universally changed their line from 'plan A isn't helping the economy' to 'yes, but what about the standard of living?'. Nobody is denying that things are still very tough out there for alot of people, and that this is just a glimmer of he start of better economic circumstances, of course, but you have to walk before you can run - in order to raise wages and living standards that have been squeezed over recent years, you have to start to fix the economy and get public spending under control - do Labour really think that people don't realise this?!
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Post by Oddquine on Sept 10, 2013 14:38:21 GMT
www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/10297497/UK-on-mend-with-game-changing-year-for-jobs.htmlPerhaps 'Plan A' isn't quite so bad as the Labour Party have been desperately trying to claim (along with desperately trying to ignore the fact that they were responsible for the crisis and massive deficit in the first place, of course!). It was very noticeable over the weekend that the Labour Party suddenly and universally changed their line from 'plan A isn't helping the economy' to 'yes, but what about the standard of living?'. Nobody is denying that things are still very tough out there for alot of people, and that this is just a glimmer of he start of better economic circumstances, of course, but you have to walk before you can run - in order to raise wages and living standards that have been squeezed over recent years, you have to start to fix the economy and get public spending under control - do Labour really think that people don't realise this?! Ah........but how many of those jobs are zero hours contract jobs..which are no more real jobs than tattie-howking in the Tattie Holidays could be said to be a career in the days when I participated in that back-breaking task. Where I have big problems with the Coalition version of an improving economy is that millionaires are being regularly added to the rich list.....people earning getting close to £1000 a week are able to claim tax-credits.....most pensioners are pretty much feather-bedded...I know because I am one....and those on other benefits bar the pension are being trashed right left and centre. I'm not a fan of the benefits system by any means, mind you....the throwing tax credits at employees on crap wages to increase/maintain their employers' profits...and tax credits for those earning wages twice as much as the average wage for those in full time employment is not what the Benefits system was ever meant to be about. But we are where we are, re a massive UK debt burden with which we struggle, because, over the years since the Welfare State came into being, successive Governments have used it to buy votes...to the extent that the benchmark for individual state help is now relative poverty...and not predicated on even the conditions that pertained when I was a child, which then, ten years after birth of the Welfare State was also relative poverty but with a much lower benchmark than today. Nowadays we appear to expect that the Government has an obligation to allow us unimpeded social participation, with all the gadgets that entails, paid for by the state, as well as to meet the imperative of day to day living. Difference is that with Old Labour.....the ordinary worker mostly benefited...and to a lesser extent with NuLabour, who was pretty even-handed at dishing out our dosh to the deserving poor and the undeserving rich......but with the Tories,and this current Coalition......it was the poor who became undeserving.....the rich became hard done by and deserved a lax taxation policy.....(maybe because so many of our "representatives" are themselves millionaires)...and the standard of living people had become used to having was reduced...but only for the relatively poor. And as for those who actually put us in this position......our politicians removing banking restrictions,starting with Thatcher and continuing with Blair, ...and the bankers to whom they handed all our money, so they could gamble it away in return for their silly money wages and bonuses....are STILL earning as if "it had nothing to do with them, guv!"
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Post by cenydd on Sept 10, 2013 15:01:38 GMT
I'm not a fan of the benefits system by any means, mind you....the throwing tax credits at employees on crap wages to increase/maintain their employers' profits...and tax credits for those earning wages twice as much as the average wage for those in full time employment is not what the Benefits system was ever meant to be about. No, it wasn't. It was supposed to be a safety net for those in real need, and we do need to get back towards that idea, because we can't afford it to be a blunt and simplistic mechanism of government redistribution of wealth, which is what Labour tried to bring in. I'm all for 'making work pay', of course, and helping those who need help - that has to be inherent in the system, but doing it by just giving tax payer money to relatively low-earners (not just those in real poverty) will never work, and will never be affordable without massive tax increases that would cripple everyone else. One method of helping, which this coalition has done, of course, is to simply allow lower earners to keep a much greater proportion of their income by raising the minimum tax threshold - that doesn't demand a huge system of bureaucracy in addition to the normal tax-raising system to implement, for a start, and doesn't involve so much taking with one hand and giving back with the other (and it benefits everyone, of course, but the less you earn the more you benefit in practical terms). We do need to be a bit careful about raising the minimum wage to a level that could damage employers, but dealing with minimum wage fraudsters and zero contract stuff is another avenue to ensure a bit of fairness in the system. Difference is that with Old Labour.....the ordinary worker mostly benefited...and to a lesser extent with NuLabour, who was pretty even-handed at dishing out our dosh to the deserving poor and the undeserving rich......but with the Tories,and this current Coalition......it was the poor who became undeserving.....the rich became hard done by and deserved a lax taxation policy.....(maybe because so many of our "representatives" are themselves millionaires)...and the standard of living people had become used to having was reduced...but only for the relatively poor. Old Labour were obsessed with redistribution of wealth, and taking money from the rich to give to the poor pretty much regardless of their own talents and efforts. It never worked, and never could. Nu Labour wasn't much different apart from leaving the wealthy to run riot too. The tax system for the rich does need to be tightened up so that they pay their fair share (and efforts have been and are being made to do that), but they shouldn't be asked to pay more than their fair share - not only can they afford to take their money elsewhere, but the harder they are squeezed the more they try to get away with, and the more emphasis they put on aggressive tax avoidance schemes that mean that they don't pay anything like what they should. They need to be taxed at a realistic level too, not punished for being successful (even if some of them have taken the urine when it comes to exploiting their success and their positions - that's a different issue from the tax itself). Now that the economy is showing positive signs, Labour has noticeably switched its point of attack, but as usual without actually saying anything positive about what they would do differently. Until they come up with some kind of policy, they really aren't saying anything at all.
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Post by iolo on Sept 13, 2013 17:37:39 GMT
In the real world, people are in a crap position, battered by the tory class war, depressed, poor and with everything getting worse. The etonian fatmen in their lounge-bars are doing well, like those who work the Noise Machine. The rest of us say 'Bollux!' to the slimy crooks.
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Post by Leo on Sept 13, 2013 23:08:44 GMT
Old Labour were obsessed with redistribution of wealth, and taking money from the rich to give to the poor pretty much regardless of their own talents and efforts. It never worked, and never could. Nu Labour wasn't much different apart from leaving the wealthy to run riot too. The tax system for the rich does need to be tightened up so that they pay their fair share (and efforts have been and are being made to do that), but they shouldn't be asked to pay more than their fair share - not only can they afford to take their money elsewhere, but the harder they are squeezed the more they try to get away with, and the more emphasis they put on aggressive tax avoidance schemes that mean that they don't pay anything like what they should. They need to be taxed at a realistic level too, not punished for being successful (even if some of them have taken the urine when it comes to exploiting their success and their positions - that's a different issue from the tax itself). Now that the economy is showing positive signs, Labour has noticeably switched its point of attack, but as usual without actually saying anything positive about what they would do differently. Until they come up with some kind of policy, they really aren't saying anything at all. Surely it boils down to a simple matter of common sense economics? A society needs a certain level of revenue to operate efficiently on behalf of all its citizens. The most effective way to generate that revenue is via taxation - either direct income tax, or indirect consumer taxes. Which brings us to the two questions of ability and effect. The first is obviously answered by asking who is in the best position to contribute handsomely to the public purse, and the second needs to be considered in terms of who will suffer the most from having a given percentage of their annual income extracted by Her Majesty's Inland Revenue. It is obvious that indirect taxation, while in many ways a money-spinner, causes the greatest burden to those on a low income, and is thereby regressive, so the most equitable answer lies with progressive income tax. The knotty problem, of course, being what is a 'fair share' of the tax burden. I think the late President Kennedy put it well when he said "For of those to whom much is given, much is expected." To which I would add the observations of John Donne - "No man is an island, entire of itself ..." The wealthy may very well have worked hard (but unlikely to have sweated for as long as a miner, or a digger of ditches,) in order to earn their fortunes, but nobody becomes a billionaire on a desert island. The society, the infrastructure, the governance, and the market, all have to be in place in order to allow the amassing of material wealth. So it is not by his efforts alone that a man becomes wealthy, and very often, the major contributing factor is personal circumstances (like coming from a wealthy or well-connected family). So let us reserve our tears for the pensioner who cannot afford his power bills, and shivers in front of a one-bar radiator, rather than the man on a six figure salary who is required to pay one third of that in taxation (he is unlikely to be cold, or go without a meal, this winter). As for aggresive tax avoidance schemes - they are only possible because of overly-complex taxation legislation. Let's simplify the tax act. Per example - a man who runs a small business may legitimately claim the direct operating costs thereof (cost of goods, direct operating costs - power bills, wages, etc.) - but why should his business lunches be deductible? Even more so in respect of a salaried business executive - entertaining clients should not be a legitimate cost of doing business. Nor should leasing and maintaining a vehicle which is used only for personal transport to and from the office. A farm labourer, or coal miner, or accounts payable clerk, is not entitled to go to lunch with his workmates and claim that as a deduction, so why should a company director? Anyway, you get my point - the simpler and more direct the tax act, the fewer loopholes there are to exploit, and the more annual income a man receives, the less he is affected by VAT and all the other forms of indirect taxation. The wealthy are not those requiring protection in our society, nor are they being treated unfairly by progressive tax rates. A man on 500,000 pounds who is only left 300,000 pounds a year after taxation, can still live, and provide for his family, with a degree of comfort.
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Post by iolo on Sept 18, 2013 12:04:10 GMT
Hi Leo. I am lazy, and miss the ability just to say 'Thanks' here. What you have posted seems to me extremely sensible, whatever. Send it on to Cameron!
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Post by dangermouse on Sept 18, 2013 22:10:50 GMT
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Post by cenydd on Sept 19, 2013 11:21:39 GMT
In the real world, people are in a crap position, battered by the tory class war, depressed, poor and with everything getting worse. The etonian fatmen in their lounge-bars are doing well, like those who work the Noise Machine. The rest of us say 'Bollux!' to the slimy crooks. People have been put into a difficult position by the monumental overspending of the previous government, and the need to bring the UK back from the brink of bankruptcy. Whoever was in government, austerity was going to be inevitable, one way or another (either by 'choice' to sort things out, or being forced into it (and much harder) after bankruptcy hit if they didn't, as happened in Greece). The Tories, of course, have their instincts of reducing the tax burden for the already rich. Thankfully, they aren't in government on their own, so weren't able to do it - they couldn't give the inheritance tax breaks they wanted to, they had to raise the lower tax threshold to significantly reduce the tax burden on the lowest paid, and so on. Tough economic times were inevitable - what wasn't inevitable, and had to be fought for, was to achieve the necessary costs cuts in as fair a way as possible. It hasn't been perfect, of course, because coalition government obviously means compromises, but think how much worse it could have been under either the Tories (who would have given those tax breaks to the rich, and none to the poor and ordinary people) or Labour (who would have ultimately seen the country end up in a Greece situation, suffering under a much harsher regime of austerity).
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Post by iolo on Sept 19, 2013 11:49:22 GMT
People are 'in difficulties' because the thieves are taking so much there is nothing to spend, so the economy is totally flat. Wicked Brown - he seized control of world capitalism, especially the American housing market - to produce the slump! How shocking! Well, without the Liberals there'd have been no class-war government, and fortunately they are dead, dead, dead. All we need now is to build up a Labour Party to represent the British People against all these crooks and their lying media.
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Post by cenydd on Sept 19, 2013 12:02:44 GMT
People are 'in difficulties' because the thieves are taking so much there is nothing to spend, so the economy is totally flat. Wicked Brown - he seized control of world capitalism, especially the American housing market - to produce the slump! How shocking! Well, without the Liberals there'd have been no class-war government, and fortunately they are dead, dead, dead. All we need now is to build up a Labour Party to represent the British People against all these crooks and their lying media. Except that none of that is remotely true, of course, no matter how often the Daily Mirror repeats it!
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Post by iolo on Sept 19, 2013 13:06:03 GMT
People are 'in difficulties' because the thieves are taking so much there is nothing to spend, so the economy is totally flat. Wicked Brown - he seized control of world capitalism, especially the American housing market - to produce the slump! How shocking! Well, without the Liberals there'd have been no class-war government, and fortunately they are dead, dead, dead. All we need now is to build up a Labour Party to represent the British People against all these crooks and their lying media. Except that none of that is remotely true, of course, no matter how often the Daily Mirror repeats it! I've never read the Daily Mirror. What does it repeat? That the Westminster Parliament is less useful than Wipesnade Zoo? That Clegg is the biggest liar since Hitler? That this Government hates the British People and would destroy it if it could make profits without? Mirror must be worth reading after all!
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Post by cenydd on Sept 19, 2013 13:29:29 GMT
The Mirror is very good for people who want to read irrational rhetoric about how nasty all them rich people are, and don't want to worry about minor inconveniences like truth. It's the radical loony left's equivalent of the Daily Fail or Fox News - kind of 'Socialist Worker Lite'!
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Post by iolo on Sept 19, 2013 13:43:28 GMT
The Mirror is very good for people who want to read irrational rhetoric about how nasty all them rich people are, and don't want to worry about minor inconveniences like truth. It's the radical loony left's equivalent of the Daily Fail or Fox News - kind of 'Socialist Worker Lite'! Well, as long as it doesn't support the Liberals there must be something to say for it. I am saving up for a black suit for the Clegg funeral! I feel I ought to go, because so few will, out of respect for the disgraced family. Long live personal pledges!
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