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Post by iolo on Oct 29, 2013 12:41:25 GMT
You haven't answered. You mean capitalists are superior and everyone else can die, obviously, but most of us think capitalists are moral *fairy dust*ehawks without any reason whatever for existing, as you know. Not at all. Capitalists are, in general, superior to their workforce but the workforce needs to survive as no society can operate without trash collectors and the man who cleans the dung out of a blocked toilet'. The idea of equality is alien to man as is proven by a very long history. We've always had leaders and followers, kings, lords, bosses and the prols. Ask this: if all were paid the same, what would be the point in education and hard work as there would be no reward for sacrifice? It is man's nature to be the best he can be so some rise to greatness whilst others sweep the streets. It's real life - live with it. When did any capitalist ever sacrifice anything except other people's lives? You are living in a world of insane propaganda. Capitalists are the children of the extremely rich, and grow richer by stealing. They are as creative as burglars, at best. |
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Post by fred on Oct 29, 2013 22:38:54 GMT
Not at all. Capitalists are, in general, superior to their workforce but the workforce needs to survive as no society can operate without trash collectors and the man who cleans the dung out of a blocked toilet'. The idea of equality is alien to man as is proven by a very long history. We've always had leaders and followers, kings, lords, bosses and the prols. Ask this: if all were paid the same, what would be the point in education and hard work as there would be no reward for sacrifice? It is man's nature to be the best he can be so some rise to greatness whilst others sweep the streets. It's real life - live with it. When did any capitalist ever sacrifice anything except other people's lives? You are living in a world of insane propaganda. Capitalists are the children of the extremely rich, and grow richer by stealing. They are as creative as burglars, at best. I don't believe you understand at all; that or just don't want to. The first thing you should be aware of is, you're wrong. I'm a Thatcherite capitalist but I didn't come from an especially rich family, in fact, my father started work on a low grade but worked up to a decent job because of a good attitude and hard work. I worked for a while in a large company where, as just one more cog in the machine, I was groomed by the union lot into thinking I was something special and deserved higher wages but without adding anything to the company. The union idiot was half right, I was special. I believed him at first and even joined the Labour party where I got an education. The idiots actually seemed to believe what they spouted but their natural state, capitalism and greed, was always there. They wanted all the best of everything but they wanted it for nothing, not to gain it through hard work. I dropped my membership of that stupid party, joined the Conservatives and gave the union I was a member of, the finger. Not bad in a closed shop as was common at the time. For those who don't know, a closed shop entailed enforced union membership of they'd try to have you sacked. That about shows what the unions are in reality. I didn't get sacked as they knew I'd go direct to court and the Daily mail, a vicious newspaper (Actually, bum wiping paper but even rubbish such as that can be used to advantage) and, as Thatcher had just been elected and the unions were really busy trying to depose the democratically elected leader and impose communism, I was considered less of a problem unless they got me out. Negative press is something they didn't need at that point and I would have been seriously bad news for them. The papers were looking for anti union stories as most were supporting Thatcher and I would have been ideal. Why are capitalists thieves? We give you work and create wealth for the country. Without these, you'd be living in mud shacks, tied houses, dependent on your job, wallowing in self pity as you do a little hunter gathering or selling matches outside a football ground......oh, hang on, football clubs are businesses and there would be no capitalists so no football and no TV as they're produced by business. I suppose you could get into your Lada or Trabant and try to find work in a state run factory, or would that be too much like Norman Tebbit telling you to get on your bike? You need to move into the real world, a place where capitalism is the natural state of man and some people are better than others. I believe I'm a prime example. I now own a business but also work for an employer. My work provides me with about 5 times as much as the other teachers in my school get. I get this because I work hard, am willing to go way past what anyone else will do and get results. I work as much outside school as I do inside and I've built my own audio visual room (with my own money) within school. The school see what I do and pay be to suit the effort and value I add to their business. My pay rise this year was 1.5 times greater than the salary of the lowest paid teacher in that school and has paid for all the equipment I've bought so I now have all that gear at zero cost and have no money worries. My monthly outgoings are about 5% of my salary'leaving 95% to spend or save as I see fit. I also run a small business with my wife. The burger restaurant isn't exactly a massive money machine, more of a hobby business for my wife but it pays the shopping bill. Upstairs, I'm opening a private school that will produce a bit of real cash and should, when running, double my salary. Now, please explain why I should do all that work and invest my money in an effort to improve my employers school, as well as starting my own business, if I was getting the same as everyone else? Your communist rubbish simply doesn't work in the real world as it takes no account of hard work, effort and a reasonable attitude, substituting these for some dream of getting everything for nothing. |
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Post by iolo on Oct 31, 2013 13:04:44 GMT
Capitalists are thieves because they do no work and steal a very large part of the reward of those who do, as you know.
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Post by fred on Nov 1, 2013 13:35:55 GMT
Capitalists are thieves because they do no work and steal a very large part of the reward of those who do, as you know. Answer my question. What good is going to all that effort if the greedy workers take all |
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Post by iolo on Nov 1, 2013 13:40:53 GMT
Capitalists are thieves because they do no work and steal a very large part of the reward of those who do, as you know. Answer my question. What good is going to all that effort if the greedy workers take all 'Greedy'? They create all wealth and are the immense majority. We want to get on with being human instead of playing your unbelievably tedious games of monopoly, man. |
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Post by fred on Nov 2, 2013 1:21:22 GMT
The workers do not create the wealth; that's like saying a spanner fixes the car.
The workers, just like the spanner, are tools.
They create nothing until someone makes and controls them.
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Post by cenydd on Nov 2, 2013 10:58:51 GMT
Both of you are wrong, in so far as wealth creation has to involve both the 'workers' who are doing the job and the 'bosses' who are driving the company. Without either the system (ANY system) will inevitably fail. The bosses should be free enough to innovate, advance the company and make reasonable profits (otherwise their is no incentive, and therefore no development, and that doesn't help the workers either since there would soon be no employment), while the workers should be treated fairly and legally protected from unfair exploitation (and it is of benefit to the bosses to have a workforce that is skilled, happy and loyal to the company - that brings higher productivity). It has to be a balanced system in order for it to work well for both parties, and for the wider society. Unbalancing it in either direction is in nobody's interests.
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Post by fred on Nov 2, 2013 14:53:12 GMT
Both of you are wrong, in so far as wealth creation has to involve both the 'workers' who are doing the job and the 'bosses' who are driving the company. Without either the system (ANY system) will inevitably fail. I posted a little comment earlier in the thread that said something similar. However, my main interlocutor is asking for far more than basic rights of a safe working environment and so on; he seems to want proofit sharing but no risk or input other than the work these people are paid to do. My restaurant staff work for me, are paid about average for their labours but get a free room and free food. I consider myself a more than reasonable employer but there is n way in this world they'll ever get profit sharing unless they want to invest in the business and take the risks I do. It's unreasonable but the left wing, union mad, grabbers want riches without work. |
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Post by iolo on Nov 2, 2013 15:20:35 GMT
Both of you are wrong, in so far as wealth creation has to involve both the 'workers' who are doing the job and the 'bosses' who are driving the company. Without either the system (ANY system) will inevitably fail. I posted a little comment earlier in the thread that said something similar. However, my main interlocutor is asking for far more than basic rights of a safe working environment and so on; he seems to want proofit sharing but no risk or input other than the work these people are paid to do. My restaurant staff work for me, are paid about average for their labours but get a free room and free food. I consider myself a more than reasonable employer but there is n way in this world they'll ever get profit sharing unless they want to invest in the business and take the risks I do. It's unreasonable but the left wing, union mad, grabbers want riches without work. But it is they who DO the work, man! You don't pay for their manly or womanly beauty in repose, as I take it? |
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Post by cenydd on Nov 2, 2013 16:03:18 GMT
There's actually a very good business argument in favour of some form of profit-sharing bonus or share ownership scheme, though. It gives workers an investment in the company, which is a very good way of gaining loyalty and giving an incentive to work harder/better. Happy staff who feel they are well rewarded and have a reason to work hard tend to do better work than people who are just paid by the hour, and are only turning up because they need to to get the money to live on. That's good for the business, which is good for everyone involved - it might lower owner profits slightly in percentage terms, but it's entirely possible that the overall net financial gain from the increased productivity (including in the restaurant trade - happy staff who do their jobs well and 'go the extra mile' can improve reputation, which attracts additional custom) will more than outweigh that. |
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Post by cenydd on Nov 2, 2013 16:09:07 GMT
The fact that owners and management are not necessarily serving customers directly (although in the restaurant trade they very often are anyway) does NOT mean that they aren't doing their share (or more - they often end up putting in longer hours, doing necessary paperwork and so on outside of business opening hours) of the work, in addition to taking the financial risks. It is an entirely false assumption that people who 'sit at a desk', for example, aren't 'doing work'. They are doing the 'backroom' work that needs to be done in order for everyone one else to have work to do, and to actually have a job. This is a basic failure of 'up the workers' thinking - the idea that 'workers' are only those 'at the sharp end' and 'at the bottom', and that everyone else within an organisation is swanning about doing basically nothing while the work is done for them. It is complete nonsense, every bit as much as any opposite assumption (which does happen) that those 'at the bottom' are less important to a business than those 'at the top', and therefore exploitable and expendable. Everyone is a vital cog in the mechanism without which the mechanism cannot and will not function. |
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Post by iolo on Nov 2, 2013 17:52:43 GMT
The fact that owners and management are not necessarily serving customers directly (although in the restaurant trade they very often are anyway) does NOT mean that they aren't doing their share (or more - they often end up putting in longer hours, doing necessary paperwork and so on outside of business opening hours) of the work, in addition to taking the financial risks. It is an entirely false assumption that people who 'sit at a desk', for example, aren't 'doing work'. They are doing the 'backroom' work that needs to be done in order for everyone one else to have work to do, and to actually have a job. This is a basic failure of 'up the workers' thinking - the idea that 'workers' are only those 'at the sharp end' and 'at the bottom', and that everyone else within an organisation is swanning about doing basically nothing while the work is done for them. It is complete nonsense, every bit as much as any opposite assumption (which does happen) that those 'at the bottom' are less important to a business than those 'at the top', and therefore exploitable and expendable. Everyone is a vital cog in the mechanism without which the mechanism cannot and will not function. Owners do no work at all - they merely steal, using the management to do so. Burglars often have to work nights, poor suffering devils! We are forced to pretend to believe the bosses' bilge in everyday life, but lies remain lies, even in a police-state. |
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Post by fred on Nov 3, 2013 0:56:46 GMT
There's actually a very good business argument in favour of some form of profit-sharing bonus or share ownership scheme, though. It gives workers an investment in the company, which is a very good way of gaining loyalty and giving an incentive to work harder/better. Happy staff who feel they are well rewarded and have a reason to work hard tend to do better work than people who are just paid by the hour, and are only turning up because they need to to get the money to live on. That's good for the business, which is good for everyone involved - it might lower owner profits slightly in percentage terms, but it's entirely possible that the overall net financial gain from the increased productivity (including in the restaurant trade - happy staff who do their jobs well and 'go the extra mile' can improve reputation, which attracts additional custom) will more than outweigh that. No worries. My restaurant has, after three months, yet to make a profit. I assume that means the workers can pay an equal share of the bills and take no wages. I'll ask them this afternoon. I'll bet they're going to love you. |
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Post by fred on Nov 3, 2013 0:59:03 GMT
I posted a little comment earlier in the thread that said something similar. However, my main interlocutor is asking for far more than basic rights of a safe working environment and so on; he seems to want proofit sharing but no risk or input other than the work these people are paid to do. My restaurant staff work for me, are paid about average for their labours but get a free room and free food. I consider myself a more than reasonable employer but there is n way in this world they'll ever get profit sharing unless they want to invest in the business and take the risks I do. It's unreasonable but the left wing, union mad, grabbers want riches without work. But it is they who DO the work, man! You don't pay for their manly or womanly beauty in repose, as I take it? Supply and demand. They may well do the work but there are millions of prols out there who want to work but only one me who will invest in that business, risk my own money and potentially make a big loss. Basically, if they don't invest, sod them. |
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Post by iolo on Nov 4, 2013 13:33:34 GMT
You haven't answered. You mean capitalists are superior and everyone else can die, obviously, but most of us think capitalists are moral *fairy dust*ehawks without any reason whatever for existing, as you know. Not at all. Capitalists are, in general, superior to their workforce but the workforce needs to survive as no society can operate without trash collectors and the man who cleans the dung out of a blocked toilet'. The idea of equality is alien to man as is proven by a very long history. We've always had leaders and followers, kings, lords, bosses and the prols. Ask this: if all were paid the same, what would be the point in education and hard work as there would be no reward for sacrifice? It is man's nature to be the best he can be so some rise to greatness whilst others sweep the streets. It's real life - live with it. If the only reason to get educated and work is to be able to thieve from honest people, logically it is time to die, since you are not human or any use to anyone. |
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