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Post by ShivaTD on Aug 19, 2013 10:17:32 GMT
The latest in the controversy of whether Princess Diana was murdered or was her death an accident?
gma.yahoo.com/princess-diana-death-probe-british-media-reports-allegation-170105344--abc-news-topstories.html
When we address a situation like this we always end up with trying to determine who had the "Means, Motive, and Opportunity" to commit such a crime. The only identifiable persons that would have the "Means" is the Royal Family which can call upon the British Military when needed and could do so secretly outside of official channels. The question is did the Queen, or perhaps Prince Charles, have a Motive to order Princess Diana murdered? We could consider the fact that Dodi al Fayed was both a foreigner and as Muslim as a possible motive for murder. There was a fairly good chance that Princess Diana was going to marry Dodi and she was unquestionably having sexual relations with him both of which could have been an embarrassment to the Royal Family.
The night of the "accident" could certainly have been an "Opportunity" for SAS assassins and we might even speculate that Jodi and Diana did die in a car crash but they could have been trying to escape an assassination attempt, not the paparazzi, which is why they were doing over 85 mph at the time. Were they literally "running for their lives" when the accident occurred?
It's interesting to think about...... historically government leaders are far from being "guilt free" when it comes to committing murder.
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Post by tamora on Aug 19, 2013 17:10:32 GMT
Accident. Conspirarcy theorists never give up, but at least this one makes a change from previous wacky theories though.
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Post by cenydd on Aug 19, 2013 18:22:53 GMT
Accident. Conspirarcy theorists never give up, but at least this one makes a change from previous wacky theories though. Agreed. There will always be such conspiracy theories, but most of them will be entirely without foundation. The idea that senior royals could somehow secretly and directly order the assassination of one of their own family members is nonsense, even if they wanted her to be killed, which seems pretty unlikely anyway (there's a world of difference between falling out with someone and being unhappy at what they were doing and deciding to have the mother of your own children or grandchildren murdered - for all of their possible faults, the modern royal family is a very long way from being the court of Henry VIII!).
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Post by ShivaTD on Aug 19, 2013 22:02:46 GMT
Accident. Conspirarcy theorists never give up, but at least this one makes a change from previous wacky theories though. Agreed. There will always be such conspiracy theories, but most of them will be entirely without foundation. The idea that senior royals could somehow secretly and directly order the assassination of one of their own family members is nonsense, even if they wanted her to be killed, which seems pretty unlikely anyway (there's a world of difference between falling out with someone and being unhappy at what they were doing and deciding to have the mother of your own children or grandchildren murdered - for all of their possible faults, the modern royal family is a very long way from being the court of Henry VIII!). Improbably to be sure but certainly not beyond the scope of possibility. Prince Charles, from what I've read, is a really unprincipled person and I wouldn't put anything past him. The Queen? She's a rather bazaar person that is very much aloof and gives me the feeling of someone that truly believes they're above the law.
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Post by JP5 on Aug 19, 2013 22:37:00 GMT
Shiva---I thought you hated and didn't engage in conspiracy theories?
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Post by cenydd on Aug 20, 2013 7:55:40 GMT
Prince Charles, from what I've read, is a really unprincipled person and I wouldn't put anything past him. The Queen? She's a rather bazaar person that is very much aloof and gives me the feeling of someone that truly believes they're above the law. Those are significantly different characterisations from what I understand about them. Starting with her maj, she isn't 'very much aloof' at all, and in her younger days was known to 'sneak' out in ordinary clothes and head scarf to go shopping around the markets of London to keep 'in touch' with the people. She also, of course, served as a mechanic and truck driver in the Auxiliary Territorial Service during the latter stages of the war (her husband, of course, was an active Naval Officer, and the couple lived in Malta while he was in service before she became queen). She also has her late father's sense of duty and service, and sense of tradition. Obviously being born into that position, she is by no means one of the 'common people', and that will inevitably come with certain attitudes, but, don't forget, this is the monarch who did a James Bond sketch for the opening of the Olympics. Charles is far from being an unprincipled person - he holds very strong beliefs about some issues (and isn't afraid to express them, which some in certain sectors of 'the establishment' (especially the 'modern architecture' establishment!) really don't appreciate). Again, he was born into an odd position, but again he has that same sense of duty, service and tradition. He also served in the Navy and Air Force, and does a massive amount of charity work and public ceremonial work (opening things and so on). If he has a failing, of course, it is in remaining attached to the love of his life, even when he ended up married to someone else - you could call that 'unprincipled', but on the other hand it does demonstrate a certain ongoing loyalty even when previous circumstances didn't lend themselves favourably to that love. To look further into that kind of picture being painted of particular members of the royal family, you have to look (as with anything) at the source of them, and what they were intended for. Diana was hugely popular among some sections of society as the 'fairy tale princess', and particularly in the USA and US media (who love nothing more than an old fashioned fairy tale!). However, all might not have been as it seemed - she was much better at manipulating the press that the royal family, without doubt, and manoeuvred herself quite consciously and deliberately into her 'queen of hearts' role. In the first instance, for example, one of the 'tests' for new royals is visiting Balmoral, and doing the traditional things that are done there. 'Balmorality', as it is known, something which her maj and Charlie are both enthusiastic supporters of (both being great lovers of the countryside, country living, farming, and country people - as it happens a relative of my mother tennant farmed on a royal estate, and her maj used to visit to talk to him quite regularly, and she really knew her stuff about farming). Diana claimed to them to be enjoying it and being a supporter of it, but it later transpired that she was simply lying to ensure she protected her position as the suitor of the heir to the throne. I wouldn't call her anything remotely like a 'reliable witness' - in fact, I would go as far as to say that she was a hard-nosed manipulator utterly dedicated to gaining wealth and privileged for herself, and doing whatever it took to ensure that (and she did it very well - picking the prominent charities that were 'in vogue' at the time, making the right fashion decisions, keeping the public 'on side', doing cleverly thought out interviews about how hard done by she was and how awful the royals were to her and how she just wanted to be 'queen of hearts', and so on). That picture of royalty that has been peddled to the people of the USA in particular comes from her, and for that reason I wouldn't trust a single word of it. It may very well be that her maj was 'aloof' at times with her. Maybe she didn't like or trust her. I don't find it hard to understand that! That's nowhere near the same thing as having her murdered, though - she was still the mother of her grandson, the future King, and the whole family would have been well aware of her popularity, and that if anything should happen to her because of them it would probably be the end of the monarchy. That isn't something they'd have risked, even though she was, frankly, in some ways a pain in the royal backside to them!
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Post by ShivaTD on Aug 20, 2013 12:45:57 GMT
Shiva---I thought you hated and didn't engage in conspiracy theories? I have no problem with conspiracy theories as long as they're identified as conspiracy theories which I've certainly established here. There is no actual evidence so far that Princess Diana was targeted or murdered by the SAS and the prior investigation concluded it was just an accident. Of course if it actually was a "secret" operation then the British government wouldn't admit it.
Was JFK killed by a lone gunman (Oswald) or was it a conspiracy by our own government and/or by the Mafia? The official story is no. Was the Watergate break-in about tapping Democrat phone calls (the official story) or was it about a prostitute ring? In the book Silent Coup it claimed that Howard Dean ordered the break-in to steal documents the Democrats had on a prostitutes ring being run by a friend of Dean's then girlfriend Maureen “Mo” Biner (later wife) that mentioned her and that might have implied that she was involved in the prostitution ring. www.historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=nixon_and_watergate_tmln&nixon_and_watergate_tmln_watergate_campaign_conspiracy=nixon_and_watergate_tmln_watergate_burglary&startpos=100
No, there is nothing wrong with identifying and discussing conspiracy theories. Sometimes the conspiracy theories actually turn out to be true.
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Post by ShivaTD on Aug 20, 2013 13:02:42 GMT
Did Prince Charles commit adultery or not when married to Princess Diana? Is someone that commits adultery a principled person? If a person has no honor in their private life should we expect it in their public life?
The British Crown is the head of the Church of England which has a long hostile history of violent opposition to Muslims going back to the Crusades. As recently as the 20th Century the British government treated Muslims a inferior people. The British government "authorized" the Zionist movement which violated the Right of Self-Determination of the people, predominately Muslims, in Palestine.
How much of that hatred and disrespect for Muslims is carried forward to today is speculative of course but I can't see Queen Elizabeth II being thrilled about Princess Diana sleeping with and marrying a Muslim.
As noted though this is merely a conspiracy theory and I play Devil's Advocate. There is no proof of any of this.....
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Post by tamora on Aug 21, 2013 20:55:11 GMT
Agreed. There will always be such conspiracy theories, but most of them will be entirely without foundation. The idea that senior royals could somehow secretly and directly order the assassination of one of their own family members is nonsense, even if they wanted her to be killed, which seems pretty unlikely anyway (there's a world of difference between falling out with someone and being unhappy at what they were doing and deciding to have the mother of your own children or grandchildren murdered - for all of their possible faults, the modern royal family is a very long way from being the court of Henry VIII!). Improbably to be sure but certainly not beyond the scope of possibility. Prince Charles, from what I've read, is a really unprincipled person and I wouldn't put anything past him. The Queen? She's a rather bazaar person that is very much aloof and gives me the feeling of someone that truly believes they're above the law.
The Queen? She IS above the law. Cases are brought to court by Crown prosecutors in Crown courts in her name. I don't see her as bizarre at all; she's stands above politics, is committed to her role and has served the country well (and there hasn't been a hint of a hint that she's ever broken the law of the land). Prince Charles is a bit of a prat but he's human with human failings and he's been largely forgiven for his affair. People recognise that he and Diana were in a difficult position. He was under pressure to marry and she was a young naive girl and badly advised. The idea that either of them or anyone else in the family, or the Army, could be behind Princess Diana's death is not credible.
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Post by cenydd on Aug 21, 2013 22:15:09 GMT
Prince Charles is a bit of a prat but he's human with human failings and he's been largely forgiven for his affair. People recognise that he and Diana were in a difficult position. He was under pressure to marry and she was a young naive girl and badly advised. Charles's 'affair' can be read in a different way, too - having been prevented from marrying the woman he loved due to circumstances, he was effectively forced to marry someone else because of his position and the duty to produce an heir to continue the line of succession (not something most people have to concern themselves with). Under the circumstances, his continued relationship with the woman he loved could be seen as demonstrating quite remarkable loyalty, even if that could be said to be misplaced. He can't really be accused of being a serial philanderer or anything. Quite apart from that, of course, the USA does have a particular obsession with public figures having to appear absolutely 'squeaky clean' and perfect in their private lives. It isn't nearly so common in the UK, and doesn't really exist at in much of Europe - ask a Frenchman if he cares whether his politicians and public figures are having affairs! Maybe it's partly down to the relative importance of religion in politics - in the USA a political figure has to be seen to be a 'good Christian', and has to dutifully wheel out the 'perfect' and smiling wife and kids at every event possible (something I personally find particularly odious, to be honest!). It doesn't matter whether it is actually 'true', and people are often not quite what they are in private when they appear in public so nobody really knows, but it's seems so essential to the political process in the US. I don't buy the connection between being a good public servant and not ever having an affair at all - I don't think it follows at all. Many great leaders have had affairs, and it's not hard to understand since many of them work very long hours away from home, and the affairs are quite often with work colleagues that they see more of anyway - it can be as simple as drifting apart from one person and falling for another, and I don't see that that makes someone a 'bad person' who is unfit to fulfil their public role at all, nor a person who is necessarily 'dishonourable'. A vital thing to note again is the original source of those descriptions of those particular members of the royal family, which seem particularly popular beliefs among the population of the USA. They come from post-divorce interviews with Diana, who by that point was: a. Very popular b. Very bitter c. Very, very good at manipulating the media and public opinion (especially in the USA, where she was especially popular). As for the stuff about religion and Dodi being a Muslim, that's total nonsense. Whether Charles a actually a fully committed Christian or not we will never know, of course (nor do we need to), but he's done a great deal to try to promote interfaith relations generally. It's long been strongly rumoured (never officially confirmed, of course, but very widely acknowledged) that Charles would like to change the official Monarch's title from 'Defender of the Faith' (i.e. the C of E in particular) to 'Defender of Faith', in other word the right of a person to hold and follow their beliefs, without prejudice about what beliefs they may be. His mother is of a different generation, of course, but as Head of the Commonwealth has had a great deal of personal contact with a wide variety of faiths and a huge number of leaders and worshipper from all faiths (including Islam). I seriously doubt that his religion would be much more of an issue to her than it would be to him (and it's really not likely to be an issue to him at all). Dodi's highly dodgy 'businessman' father, of course, is likely to be much more of an issue for them, but not something that he and the mother of the future king would have been murdered over (even if they could, which they almost certainly couldn't anyway - it would have been an entirely illegal act, not something that any government would have agreed to, and not something that could have been done without the specific approval of the government of the day).
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Post by Leo on Aug 22, 2013 5:18:37 GMT
Shiva, I think you know I have a great deal of respect for you, and agree with most of your views, but in this instance, your somewhat populist American view of the British Royal Family, is something that surprises me. I do not have the depth of knowledge that Cenydd demonstrates, but I think Charles is a rather principled man, and will make an excellent Head of State in the course of time. For someone in such an establishment position, he is remarkably open to new ideas, and could even be described as verging upon socialist in some of his views. I was still a toddler when Diana, Princess of Wales, died in a car accident so I don't remember her, but from what I have read, she was a selfish and manipulative woman who constantly craved the limelight. Her spiritual home was more New York than Balmoral, so I am not totally surprised she was so popular with Americans, but we should look at the reality fo the situation. It is alleged that Charles was unfaithful to her with Camilla Parker-Bowles, and that may be so - particularly as they had been sweethearts since they were both young. But Diana was on an unconcealed 'dirty weekend' with Fayed on the evening she died, and had numerous affairs with other men. Why was she not at home with her boys? I'm sorry, but I think she was the more unprincipled of the two.
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Post by beevee on Aug 22, 2013 10:14:27 GMT
Agreed. There will always be such conspiracy theories, but most of them will be entirely without foundation. The idea that senior royals could somehow secretly and directly order the assassination of one of their own family members is nonsense, even if they wanted her to be killed, which seems pretty unlikely anyway (there's a world of difference between falling out with someone and being unhappy at what they were doing and deciding to have the mother of your own children or grandchildren murdered - for all of their possible faults, the modern royal family is a very long way from being the court of Henry VIII!). Improbably to be sure but certainly not beyond the scope of possibility. Prince Charles, from what I've read, is a really unprincipled person and I wouldn't put anything past him. The Queen? She's a rather bazaar person that is very much aloof and gives me the feeling of someone that truly believes they're above the law.
In which way is the Queen bizarre? Whether she is liked or disliked, I doubt that anyone can claim she hasn't done the job expected of her, which isn't twiddling her thumbs as far as many people are concerned. She may be criticised for having disliked Diana, but you won't be finding any statements of hers that she did. Only press speculation. And that she can call on the military to do her bidding? Well, that's out of the window. If necessary, they could have had her thrown out of the Royal family as they did with Prince Andrew's former wife. There was no need to go to such extremes as to get rid of her by murder. Plus a drunken chauffeur, a speeding car, the following press, the time of the night, the route? The lying in wait? No other traffic in the tunnel at that particular time? A claim that one car was seen in the turmoil?
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Post by ShivaTD on Aug 22, 2013 10:22:44 GMT
Once again let's remember this "conspiracy theory" is based upon an allegation of SAS involvement in Diana's death. There is no proof that the SAS was involved, just an allegation, and there is no evidence of the British government being involved.
On the flip side is the historical fact that the heads of government often order assassinations. President Obama has ordered international assassinations. Bush ordered international assassinations. The Israeli government has ordered dozens if not hundreds of international assassinations. These are all considered cases of murder under international law and are prohibited but they continue to happen.
With all of the evidence supporting the fact that heads of governments order international assassinations it's rather pious of the British to say, "It can't happen here."
I would merely suggest that it's possible but improbable.
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Post by cenydd on Aug 22, 2013 12:06:25 GMT
On the flip side is the historical fact that the heads of government often order assassinations. President Obama has ordered international assassinations. Bush ordered international assassinations. The Israeli government has ordered dozens if not hundreds of international assassinations. These are all considered cases of murder under international law and are prohibited but they continue to happen.
With all of the evidence supporting the fact that heads of governments order international assassinations it's rather pious of the British to say, "It can't happen here."
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/9699795/Does-MI6-have-a-licence-to-kill.htmlOf course, conspiracy theorists might suggest that 'they would say that', but it certainly appears that the 'secret service' in the UK operates under considerably tighter rules, and under much closer scrutiny, than its US counterparts, and has done for decades. MI6 is not the CIA, and nor is it as portrayed in James Bond movies. It has certainly been involved in operations of dubious legality in the past, but those involving actual assassination plots seem to be some way in the past - more recent dubious activity seems to be restricted to being an accessory to the CIA in providing information that allows them to break international law, and turning a blind eye when they do. In the case of an assassination of Diana, the action would have to have been specifically approved by the Foreign Secretary. I believe the Foreign Secretary at the time would have been Robin Cook - anyone who knows anything about the late Mr Cook will, I'm sure, find any notion that he would approve such an action to be utterly and completely laughable (he was a man of undoubted principle and ethics, and resigned from the government, being by then Leader of the House of Commons, over the Iraq War).
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Post by africanhope on Aug 22, 2013 13:54:25 GMT
A little historical correction Shiva. The Church of England was never involved in the crusades as the crusades predate the establishment of the CoE.
AH
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