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Post by pjohns1873 on Feb 19, 2014 19:09:37 GMT
Things are starting to come to a head in Ukraine. (As one commentator put it, just yesterday, this appears impervious to any possibility of a negotiated settlement. One side will entirely vanquish the other--nothing in between.) Here is a bit more on the matter: And the link to the entire article: www.worldmag.com/2014/02/winter_at_the_barricades |
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Post by pjohns1873 on Feb 21, 2014 7:17:13 GMT
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Post by iolo on Feb 21, 2014 13:57:19 GMT
It is part of a current fashion, evident in Thailand and Egypt, of deciding to use foreign support to overthrow elected governments and impose minority rule. I'm waiting, fascinated, to watch the American Republicans try it.
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Post by pjohns1873 on Feb 21, 2014 21:19:49 GMT
It is part of a current fashion, evident in Thailand and Egypt, of deciding to use foreign support to overthrow elected governments and impose minority rule. I'm waiting, fascinated, to watch the American Republicans try it. To speak glibly of the totalitarian government of Viktor Yanukovych as the country's "elected" government is to attempt to imbue it with an imprimatur of legitimacy. But it is clearly not legitimate. And attempts to brand the protestors as mere malcontents--what country actually has such a huge percentage of passionate malcontents?--are doomed to fail. |
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Post by iolo on Feb 22, 2014 13:16:07 GMT
It is part of a current fashion, evident in Thailand and Egypt, of deciding to use foreign support to overthrow elected governments and impose minority rule. I'm waiting, fascinated, to watch the American Republicans try it. To speak glibly of the totalitarian government of Viktor Yanukovych as the country's "elected" government is to attempt to imbue it with an imprimatur of legitimacy. But it is clearly not legitimate. And attempts to brand the protestors as mere malcontents--what country actually has such a huge percentage of passionate malcontents?--are doomed to fail. Bet you that if their putsch succeeds they'll be far worse than the Egyptian 'protestors', and incredibly worse than the elected government. |
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Post by fred on Feb 22, 2014 14:11:49 GMT
It is part of a current fashion, evident in Thailand and Egypt, of deciding to use foreign support to overthrow elected governments and impose minority rule. I'm waiting, fascinated, to watch the American Republicans try it. To speak glibly of the totalitarian government of Viktor Yanukovych as the country's "elected" government is to attempt to imbue it with an imprimatur of legitimacy. But it is clearly not legitimate. And attempts to brand the protestors as mere malcontents--what country actually has such a huge percentage of passionate malcontents?--are doomed to fail. As I understand it, he did win an election but there may well have been some dodgy events in the course of it. Most objections seem to have come from political rivals. On balance, they seem to have been reasonably fair as both sides were up to dirty tricks. Yanukovych dropped onto Russia's side because most of his voter base was Russian speaking and the ex Soviets were offering large sacks of cash if he came on board, or cutting off the gas if he jumped towards the EU. The latest lot seems to be due, at least in part to the U.S. of Arse and the good old CIA. The yanks don't want Russia to gain anything and are willing to do whatever it takes to see Ukraine end up with the E.U. beforeitsnews.com/war-and-conflict/2014/02/cia-agent-captured-in-ukraine-helping-ukranian-protesters-video-here-2450486.htmlWithout a lot of effort, you find the C.I.A. in the middle of a lot of "popular protests". www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/in-purported-recording-of-us-diplomat-blunt-talk-on-ukraine/2014/02/06/518240a4-8f4b-11e3-84e1-27626c5ef5fb_story.htmlThe interfering idiots of America are deciding who should and should not be working in foreign governments (as usual) and exploiting a rough 50/50 spit in polarised political opinion to cause as much trouble as possible. There is a lot more going on here than posters are looking at and I see a whole lorry load of dung hitting a fan or few before long. |
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Post by pjohns1873 on Feb 22, 2014 21:02:41 GMT
To speak glibly of the totalitarian government of Viktor Yanukovych as the country's "elected" government is to attempt to imbue it with an imprimatur of legitimacy. But it is clearly not legitimate. And attempts to brand the protestors as mere malcontents--what country actually has such a huge percentage of passionate malcontents?--are doomed to fail. As I understand it, he did win an election but there may well have been some dodgy events in the course of it. Most objections seem to have come from political rivals. On balance, they seem to have been reasonably fair as both sides were up to dirty tricks. Yanukovych dropped onto Russia's side because most of his voter base was Russian speaking and the ex Soviets were offering large sacks of cash if he came on board, or cutting off the gas if he jumped towards the EU. The latest lot seems to be due, at least in part to the U.S. of Arse and the good old CIA. The yanks don't want Russia to gain anything and are willing to do whatever it takes to see Ukraine end up with the E.U. beforeitsnews.com/war-and-conflict/2014/02/cia-agent-captured-in-ukraine-helping-ukranian-protesters-video-here-2450486.htmlWithout a lot of effort, you find the C.I.A. in the middle of a lot of "popular protests". www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/in-purported-recording-of-us-diplomat-blunt-talk-on-ukraine/2014/02/06/518240a4-8f4b-11e3-84e1-27626c5ef5fb_story.htmlThe interfering idiots of America are deciding who should and should not be working in foreign governments (as usual) and exploiting a rough 50/50 spit in polarised political opinion to cause as much trouble as possible. There is a lot more going on here than posters are looking at and I see a whole lorry load of dung hitting a fan or few before long. There are actually some observations you have made with which I largely agree; foremost among these being that Ukraine--or, more precisely, its president--chose Russia over the EU because the former was "offering large sacks of cash if he came on board, or cutting off the gas if he jumped towards the EU." What I strongly disagree with, however, is your demonization of the US as a (supposed) puppetmaster that is "willing to do whatever it takes" to stop this flagrant attempt to bring Ukraine into the orbit of Mother Russia, as Vladimir Putin tries to reconstitute the former Soviet Union (whose breakup, he once mused, was the greatest tragedy of the twentieth century). If your speculation on this point were correct, the US would be sending small arms, at least, to the rebels; and that is almost certainly not going to happen. |
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Post by pjohns1873 on Feb 22, 2014 22:31:29 GMT
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Post by fred on Feb 22, 2014 23:08:58 GMT
There are actually some observations you have made with which I largely agree; foremost among these being that Ukraine--or, more precisely, its president--chose Russia over the EU because the former was "offering large sacks of cash if he came on board, or cutting off the gas if he jumped towards the EU." What I strongly disagree with, however, is your demonization of the US as a (supposed) puppetmaster that is "willing to do whatever it takes" to stop this flagrant attempt to bring Ukraine into the orbit of Mother Russia, as Vladimir Putin tries to reconstitute the former Soviet Union (whose breakup, he once mused, was the greatest tragedy of the twentieth century). If your speculation on this point were correct, the US would be sending small arms, at least, to the rebels; and that is almost certainly not going to happen. I've posted links to clear evidence regarding U.S. interference in their internal politics. A C.I.A. agent captured whilst helping the rebels and a recording of a high level conversation, deciding who should be and not be in the government of a foreign country. They are acting as puppet master, setting up a lot of the protest for their own political ends, or at least stopping Russia achieving theirs. The States are clearly involving themselves in this affair, so are open to criticism of their actions. As usual, when outside players, mainly Russia, The E.U. and the U.S.A. get involved, there will be more violence, more destruction, more misery and more death than there would have been without them. You'd think the U.S. would have learned a little something from their *cake* ups in Syria but, no, they have to mess around in another country's politics, again. At least only a few people have died in this one. |
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Post by fred on Feb 22, 2014 23:24:29 GMT
Oddly enough, Princip, an assassin who just happened to be hanging around, gun in hand, started a war when he shot a couple of dudes who's car had taken a surprisingly handy wrong turn and parked next to a surprisingly handy assassin.
Oddly enough, an assassin that had been sold duff poison that totally failed to kill him or his mate that had tried to murder the duke earlier.
Handy again, the assassin was a physically and mentally weak fall guy. Does that follow a pattern or what?
Anyway, the point is simple.
Foreign messing around tends to cause big problems.
The U.S. of Arse hasn't managed to work this out yet, rather sad as millions of people are being killed because American politicians are bloody idiots.
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Post by pjohns1873 on Feb 24, 2014 2:53:10 GMT
There are actually some observations you have made with which I largely agree; foremost among these being that Ukraine--or, more precisely, its president--chose Russia over the EU because the former was "offering large sacks of cash if he came on board, or cutting off the gas if he jumped towards the EU." What I strongly disagree with, however, is your demonization of the US as a (supposed) puppetmaster that is "willing to do whatever it takes" to stop this flagrant attempt to bring Ukraine into the orbit of Mother Russia, as Vladimir Putin tries to reconstitute the former Soviet Union (whose breakup, he once mused, was the greatest tragedy of the twentieth century). If your speculation on this point were correct, the US would be sending small arms, at least, to the rebels; and that is almost certainly not going to happen. I've posted links to clear evidence regarding U.S. interference in their internal politics. A C.I.A. agent captured whilst helping the rebels and a recording of a high level conversation, deciding who should be and not be in the government of a foreign country. They are acting as puppet master, setting up a lot of the protest for their own political ends, or at least stopping Russia achieving theirs. The States are clearly involving themselves in this affair, so are open to criticism of their actions. As usual, when outside players, mainly Russia, The E.U. and the U.S.A. get involved, there will be more violence, more destruction, more misery and more death than there would have been without them. You'd think the U.S. would have learned a little something from their *cake* ups in Syria but, no, they have to mess around in another country's politics, again. At least only a few people have died in this one. (1) I really do not care to go searching for your links. If you would like to post them again, in this thread, I will have a look. (2) I really wish the US would attempt to stop Russia from establishing Ukraine as a Russian puppet state. A good start would be for the US to send arms to the rebels in Ukraine--including tanks and warplanes, if necessary--although I would not be enthusiastic about our putting boots on the ground there. However, the "clear" message that the Obama administration has relayed to Vladimir Putin--to stay out of this internal conflict--is probably not taken very seriously by this former KGB boss. After all, President Obama's "red line" as regarding Syria had all the impact of a wet noodle. And he appears eager to placate and curry favor with the Russian leader, as obsequiously as necessary. |
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Post by iolo on Feb 24, 2014 15:06:49 GMT
I've posted links to clear evidence regarding U.S. interference in their internal politics. A C.I.A. agent captured whilst helping the rebels and a recording of a high level conversation, deciding who should be and not be in the government of a foreign country. They are acting as puppet master, setting up a lot of the protest for their own political ends, or at least stopping Russia achieving theirs. The States are clearly involving themselves in this affair, so are open to criticism of their actions. As usual, when outside players, mainly Russia, The E.U. and the U.S.A. get involved, there will be more violence, more destruction, more misery and more death than there would have been without them. You'd think the U.S. would have learned a little something from their *cake* ups in Syria but, no, they have to mess around in another country's politics, again. At least only a few people have died in this one. (1) I really do not care to go searching for your links. If you would like to post them again, in this thread, I will have a look. (2) I really wish the US would attempt to stop Russia from establishing Ukraine as a Russian puppet state. A good start would be for the US to send arms to the rebels in Ukraine--including tanks and warplanes, if necessary--although I would not be enthusiastic about our putting boots on the ground there. However, the "clear" message that the Obama administration has relayed to Vladimir Putin--to stay out of this internal conflict--is probably not taken very seriously by this former KGB boss. After all, President Obama's "red line" as regarding Syria had all the impact of a wet noodle. And he appears eager to placate and curry favor with the Russian leader, as obsequiously as necessary. So any gang of thugs with local support can overthrow any elected government and expect US help? Heil bloody Hitler, and God save us all! |
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Post by pjohns1873 on Feb 24, 2014 18:42:15 GMT
(1) I really do not care to go searching for your links. If you would like to post them again, in this thread, I will have a look. (2) I really wish the US would attempt to stop Russia from establishing Ukraine as a Russian puppet state. A good start would be for the US to send arms to the rebels in Ukraine--including tanks and warplanes, if necessary--although I would not be enthusiastic about our putting boots on the ground there. However, the "clear" message that the Obama administration has relayed to Vladimir Putin--to stay out of this internal conflict--is probably not taken very seriously by this former KGB boss. After all, President Obama's "red line" as regarding Syria had all the impact of a wet noodle. And he appears eager to placate and curry favor with the Russian leader, as obsequiously as necessary. So any gang of thugs with local support can overthrow any elected government and expect US help? Heil bloody Hitler, and God save us all! Presumably, if you had been alive in colonial America in the 1770s, you would have seen the American revolutionaries as a mere "gang of thugs" also. Oh, by the way, the European Union has now recognized the new government in Kiev-- not the deposed government--as the legitimate government of Ukraine. (It remains to be seen what move Vladimir Putin will make next.) |
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Post by iolo on Feb 24, 2014 18:53:02 GMT
The American rebels were certainly a gang of thugs, but unlike the Ukrainian putschists they probably represented a bare majority, just about. Who gives a whatsit what that gang of capitalist crumbs do?
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Post by fred on Feb 25, 2014 4:34:23 GMT
Oh, by the way, the European Union has now recognized the new government in Kiev-- not the deposed government--as the legitimate government of Ukraine. (It remains to be seen what move Vladimir Putin will make next.) I have yet to check that but, assuming it's true, the E.U. are siding with unelected groups against elected ones. Much as I have no love for the outgoing, they were elected by the popular vote, not foreign politicians. |
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